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NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

greenwald.substack.com

181–190 of 368 posts

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#181

Some thoughts on the bigger picture- 1: Really? Do you have to write "r-word" instead of "retard" when you're writing about someone saying something? What if Marc literally said "r-word" and I'm vastly underestimating how woke this reporter is? Wait, I have a solution. Use the actual word that a person said when quoting them. Just write the exact sentence where you think Marc said the word retard. Nobody should prose…

There's a minor problem with your 1st item above - the quote she was (mis)attributing to Marc was actually a quote from DFV on /r/wallstreetbets. If she had use the word in her quote of his quote, it would have damaged her narrative.

The fact is that in her tweet and subsequent non-apology when corrected she went out of her way to paper over the context of this being a quote of DFV. She claimed the word was used 'casually' as if it was directed at someone or a group rather than quoting someone who was referring to himself...

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#182

He's right. When I started writing in the 90's, there was an idea of journalism as telling stories in the principled defence of minority interests and as a public check on institutional power, but it has mutated into the unhinged and corrupt prosecution of deviance from official narrative lines. Social media is just a way for neighbours to denounce one another in a new snitch culture that rivals any 20th century syst…

> has mutated into the unhinged and corrupt prosecution of deviance You realize all those criticisms apply very well to this very piece , right? Just read it again. The hook from the lede paragraph invokes, literally, an: "[...] unholy mix of junior high hall-monitor tattling and Stasi-like citizen surveillance. It is half adolescent and half malevolent. Its primary objectives are control, censorship, and the destruc…

> And, FWIW: the whole thing is about how Taylor Lorenz dinged Andreessen for using the word "retarded" on a call. And it turns out, I guess, that someone said it, but not Andreessen. Is that really worth this screed?

I think this is a good microcosm of a broader trend. Is it itself indicative that the sky is falling? No, of course not. No single black man getting shot by the cops in murky circumstances is itself indicative of systemic racism. Rather, those cases, and the Lorenz case serve as useful foci for talking about what I think are real problems with society.

I do think that journalists aligning themselves against privacy and free speech in the name of fighting "misinformation" and "hate speech" is a real problem. This case is not what makes it a problem, but it is a good vignette demonstrating it.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#183

It's interesting how polemic Greenwald has become, bringing with it the same magnitude of reality denial as the actors he is going after. A title like "The Journalistic Tattletale and Censorship Industry Suffers Several Well-Deserved Blows" coming from an investigative journalist like himself really sounds like a sore loser's version of "investigative journalism needs to die if it doesn't share my narrative and polit…

> I used to be a free speech absolutist myself back in Snowden times, but having seeing the flip side of anonymous, unverified, amplified and maliciously orchestrated communication of lies by unknown actors myself over the past few years This is a strange lesson to take away, not least of all because we've seen a lot of egregious, potent, and dangerous lies from credible, verified institutions including the former PO…

I think this is missing the point of the no-longer-free-speach-absolutist sentiment (henceforth NLFSA). You note, correctly I think, that

> we've seen a lot of egregious, potent, and dangerous lies from credible, verified institutions including the former POTUS, prominent newspapers, and other important cultural institutions.

The NLFSA notes that we've been seeing a new attack on free speech and free thought emerge, namely Steven Bannon 'flood the zone with shit' approach. The classical free speech position is to fight bad ideas with better ideas, fight bad speech with good. We're running into largely unprecedented problems (in the anglosphere, at least) where bad speech is drowning out the good. There are many things we can point as possible causes (say the internet changing communication patterns, information siloing, propaganda, etc.) and there aren't clear solutions.

Conventional free speech absolutism prevents you from being muzzled -- but that's it. Acknowledging you can be silenced by a chorus of people shouting over you requires a new position.

> I don't know how someone can look at American politics and politicians (never mind cultural institutions) over the last ~decade and conclude that these people are fit to regulate Americans' speech.

The NLFSA doesn't necessarily want speech regulated, or regulated by the government, or by corporations. They may not have any particular solution in mind (though some might think they have one). The NLFSA sees a problem without necessarily seeing a solution.

I think it's reasonable to see all this, and despite our problems double down on convention free speech absolutism -- that being muzzled is the most dangerous form of intervention, that better speech will ultimately win out over bad ideas. But I don't fault someone for changing their mind to try to combat rampant conspiracy theories.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When are you guys going to figure out that this doesn't work anymore?

Am I supposed to believe he’s speaking truth to power by having constant rage fits on Twitter and appearing on Tucker Carlson?

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#185
post #39

Interestingly, China blocked access to Clubhouse today [0]. Even though our censors are annoying, at least they're less effective. Actually, they appear less effective, but could it be that they're better because they're more subtle? Are we absolutely sure that the media elite doesn't ever conspire with those in the government towards particular goals? [0] https://twitter.com/paulmozur/status/1358745066915860481

Not shocking, there was a big twitter thread yesterday talking about a conversation between Mainland Han Chinese, Uighurs and Taiwanese all on the same call talking about various things.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#186
post #6

>the Times’ tech team quickly donned their hall-monitor goggles and Stasi notebooks to warn that the Bad People had migrated to Signal and Telegram. This week they asked: “Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot?” One reporter “confess[ed] that I am worried about Telegram. Other than private messaging, people love to use Telegram for group chats — up to 200,000 people can meet inside a Telegram ch…

Thanks for the reminder on subscribing. I agree good journalism is extremely important, and a diverse set of sources is important as well. I've been feeling like we need alternatives to massive mainstream news media houses that increasingly seem like a battleground for ideological war in the newsroom. Are there any other independent journalists you would recommend?

Naked Capitalism.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think Greenwald should follow the standards he wants to enforce on fellow journalists, yes.

Opinion vs News. Greenwald is clearly expressing his personal opinion on his personal blog/page/substack. Newspapers generally mark Opinion columns as Opinion. In the case of the NYT article, it's not marked Opinion, but you could reasonably infer it as opinion because it's written as a dialog between two people. However, it's not explicitly marked as opinion, which it should be in order to make it clear that this is…

The NYT headline may be loaded and headlines fitting Betteridge's law may be facile, but there's nothing inherently "Opinion" about it (though the subheading saying "Our tech columnists discuss..." makes it pretty clear what you're about to read).

Meanwhile Greenwald states his Substack is where he's publishing as an independent journalist, so unless you want to start referring to him as an independent pundit (or entertainer, in the style of Fox News primetime), calls for journalistic integrity should absolutely apply equally there.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#188
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of substance, journalists should have enough integrity to not title an article "Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot?". "Misinformation" is among the list of grossly overused words in online discourse. It has no meaning, other than to exist as the boogyman. "Hot Spot". Another sensationalist phrase used to scare readers into thinking anyone that even slightly disagrees with their poi…

At most news orgs the reporters aren't the ones writing the article titles. I agree that the headline is alarmist, but it's probably just written to be clickbait-y, as far too many headlines now are. I disagree that "articles like this are written specifically to inadvertently call for the censorship of more voices." The article takes on a subject that has been discussed a lot recently, and, on balance, probably push…

I think I disagree with the statement that misinformation causes real and demonstrable harm. The vast majority of misinformation does not. Saying that we faked the moon landing, or that the sky is a layer of impenetrable foil, while silly, is ultimately inconsequential and does not cause harm.

There are of course rare cases when someone acts on misinformation to do something harmful. I can easily think of several examples of bad reporting from supposedly reputable media outlets that caused a ton of damage over the last year.

Conversely, most true information does not cause harm either. But some true information does cause harm.

In that sense, I think the veracity of the information has little to do with the risk of harm, and that we should not allow this trojan horse for free speech regulation to take hold. For whatever problems free speech has, trying to stifle it is just not going to provide the benefit that people think it will.

The Iraq war was based on misinformation. It did cause perhaps the greatest harm in the last several decades. However, that was “officially sanctioned” misinformation directly from the government (whether they believed it in good faith or not). I think before doing anything to limit the flow of information, consider whether the proposed framework for suppression of misinformation have caught this. Worse, if someone knew that the WMDs were not there, and could have corrected that disaster, would they have been considered misinformation?

We have already seen this in action with the tech companies giving very loose directives to their content moderators to remove certain types of misinformation. A popular youtuber was censored for telling people that masks are a good idea back in March. The official information at the time was that they do not help. The truth was that they obviously do, and now you get censored for saying that they don’t help. If someone asks honestly about something suspicious related to the election, or believes a voting rule change was procedurally unfair, without paying any mind to the weird conspiracy theories, they get moderated. Because it sounds like “claims of election fraud” and the 3 seconds that the moderator spends on it don’t allow for nuance. Or the hunter biden “misinformation” that wasn’t. That basically means that the word of the US Government (particularly the Democrats) is the “true information” and anything else in conflict with that is misinformation. And that’s a pretty bad place to be. In practice, this just doesn’t seem to work, and does more harm than good.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#190
post #68

Greenwalds tactics aside, do we really consider someone saying the word "retard" in a private discussion newsworthy? More importantly it wasnt even reported correctly and appears to be the result of Taylor Lorenz having an axe to grind with Marc Andreessen.

I think you're asking the wrong question: I might not care if someone says the word, but if their employer, or their employees or college or investors or political party or anyone else cares then that's a problem for that person. And it keeps going: their employer might not care, but the employer needs to wonder if their clients, friends, partners, or dog cares. And whether they will care in 10 or 20 years time.

That's the reason this is so insidious. It forces people not just to comply with current social standards. But to comply with the highest possible standard that might just be applied in their lifetime.

10 years ago, it was OK to say "retard". Today we're not quite sure are we. How would you feel if you got gotcha'd in 10 years time with this comment?

Now, as everyone is racing towards to most banal and inoffensive positions, you find that today's social attitudes are changing purely out of fear of tomorrow's. People hesitate to say retard, others notice and hesitate too, as fewer people say it it becomes offensive not because it is but because no one else is saying it.

I think Greenwald leaves a lot to be desired. But I think with this issue he (and others) are well ahead of the curve: a significant minority are hell bent on dumping freedom of speech and they have the leverage to do it.

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