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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#201

Post by Geminidog »

carlisle_ wrote: post #168
Geminidog wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your saying women have zero advantages over men? That absolutely none exist or has ever existed? Out of all possible advantages (let's say 1000 in total) your saying men hold 100% of all these advantages and women can't even hold one advantage? What in your mind is more realistic?

I'm saying what's the point of even keeping score when the odds are so stacked against women. Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly. If you wanna line up your complaints alongside mountains of empirical evidence showing how women are disenfranchised repeatedly feel free, just don't expect people to take you seriously when you c…

>Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly.

Show me the data for this specific case of horizontal movement in engineering organizations for women and you have an argument that can change my view.

>If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. It might make you actually feel silly to complain about how men are treated in tech.

I am listening and learning. Show me your data. >I'm saying what's the point of even keeping score when the odds are so stacked against women.

Who's keeping score? I'm just bringing up one specific case of unfair treatment. I never tried to turn this into a battle of "which sex is treated more unfairly"

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#202

Post by throwawaygh »

TameAntelope wrote: post #198
throwawaygh wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why managers often get paid more I think we are disagreeing because we're talking past one another. Hopefully the following observation helps make my point: The average base pay for a manger in the USA is much lower than the average base pay for an engineer in the USA. I'm talking about management as a discipline in general and engineering as a discipline in general . > A good manager is worth 10x a good de…

Even those tiny orgs follow what I'm talking about, you're mistaking bloat for specialization. The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills involved in building, and you are making the classic mistake of worshiping the skill of building to the exclusion of all other skills. It is much rarer to know what to build than it is to know how to build.

> Even those tiny orgs follow what I'm talking about, you're mistaking bloat for specialization.

Right. The whole thing is a silly tautology.

Good managers are force multipliers. Better hire good managers! and then if they don't force multiply they must not have been good managers :(

It's literally an unfalsifiable tautology.

> The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills involved in building, and you are making the classic mistake of worshiping the skill of building to the exclusion of all other skills.

"Knowing what to build" is not what 90+% of managers do.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#203

Post by Geminidog »

carlisle_ wrote: post #192
Geminidog wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I support equal opportunity for all genders. I assume this is what feminism supports as well. Is there somewhere in my post where I implied otherwise? Please cite what I said that made you think I am not a feminist.

Dude you have two flagged posts talking about women and you're going to try to convince me you're a feminist?

How does two flags make me not a feminist? My reputation or two flags has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a feminist or not. It doesn't even make sense how I was flagged.

I literally worked in a place where a coworker had sex with the interns he "mentored" and he "mentored" them directly for the opportunity of sex. This happened, and it's not in my power to control what happens in the real world.

My coworker also "hired" these interns and I can guarantee you they wouldn't have been hired if they were dudes. Not saying this happens everywhere, but this stuff definitely happens.

Literally what did I say or do that was against equal opportunities for both genders? Nothing. If I'm wrong, find evidence and make your case.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#204

Post by makapuf »

TameAntelope wrote: post #166
CivBase wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". That depends on how high the multiplier is and how many direct reports a manager has. A manager with 5 direct reports and a multiplier of 110% is only producing as much net value as 0.5 of his/her reports. A manager with 20 direct reports and a multiplier of 106% produces a net value of 1.2 of his/her reports. It's not safe to say that managers in gen…

Totally fair. The potential impact a manager can have is much higher (good manager multiplying their positive impact across good engineers), but an ineffective manager can be less impactful (or even actively harmful) to their direct reports (bad engineer multiplying their negative impact across bad engineers).

Problem is, an 1x manager with 2x engineers will often be credited for it.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#205

Post by TameAntelope »

throwawaygh wrote: post #202
TameAntelope wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those tiny orgs follow what I'm talking about, you're mistaking bloat for specialization. The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills involved in building, and you are making the classic mistake of worshiping the skill of building to the exclusion of all other skills. It is much rarer to know what to build than it is to know how to build.

> Even those tiny orgs follow what I'm talking about, you're mistaking bloat for specialization. Right. The whole thing is a silly tautology. Good managers are force multipliers. Better hire good managers! and then if they don't force multiply they must not have been good managers :( It's literally an unfalsifiable tautology. > The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills in…

No, it is not a tautology. You are misusing that word.

A good manager will improve the performance of her direct reports. If you can't understand this fact, then I don't think you and I have anything more to discuss.

Have a good day!

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#206

Post by throwawaygh »

TameAntelope wrote: post #205
throwawaygh wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even those tiny orgs follow what I'm talking about, you're mistaking bloat for specialization. Right. The whole thing is a silly tautology. Good managers are force multipliers. Better hire good managers! and then if they don't force multiply they must not have been good managers :( It's literally an unfalsifiable tautology. > The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills in…

No, it is not a tautology. You are misusing that word. A good manager will improve the performance of her direct reports. If you can't understand this fact, then I don't think you and I have anything more to discuss. Have a good day!

> A good manager will improve the performance of her direct reports.

Right. A good manager indisputably force multiplies because a good manager is defined as someone who improves the performance of her direct reports...

Importantly, any empirical evidence that less management structure improves outcomes is easy to dismiss because it's really just proof that the particular manager/company that failed wasn't a "good" manager/management structure. After all, if they were "good", then the output of engineers would have been multiplied, right?!

Tautology (n): a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form.

Saying that we know good managers force multiply by improving performance of reports -- and then defining "good" to mean "improve the performance of her direct reports" -- is absolutely a tautology.

More importantly, ignoring empirical evidence by making a rational appeal to the truth of this tautology creates a rather pointless conversation.

Given the choice between blind faith in a tautology that "good managers = good" and empirical evidence that sometimes "less emphasis on/power for managers = better", I prefer the latter.

You have a good day as well :)

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#207

Post by carlisle_ »

Geminidog wrote: post #201
carlisle_ wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying what's the point of even keeping score when the odds are so stacked against women. Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly. If you wanna line up your complaints alongside mountains of empirical evidence showing how women are disenfranchised repeatedly feel free, just don't expect people to take you seriously when you c…

>Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly. Show me the data for this specific case of horizontal movement in engineering organizations for women and you have an argument that can change my view. >If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. It might make you actuall…

You wanna get educated go educate yourself. I'm frankly pretty disgusted by your posts and don't have the patience to educate somebody who is stubborn and unwilling to consider other perspectives.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#208

Post by throwaheyy »

pc86 wrote: post #100
ysavir wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author…

She was a director (manager of managers), so going from that to an IC developer is absolutely a demotion by any definition of the word.

Not really if it’s by choice. She decided more to “retire” from being a director. A “demotion” is involuntary.

It’s not a demotion in the same way that voluntarily deciding on a career change from IC to management is not a promotion. A promotion is given to someone, not chosen by them.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#210

Post by itronitron »

purple-again wrote: post #97
mywittyname wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the title of the article is pretty poor. It kind of sounds like someone who was promoted from a developer to something else, rose to the level of their incompetence, then reversed the promotion to go back to doing what they enjoyed. This person was not a developer previously, so I don't understand how they were "demoted." Other than management > individual contributor. What really happened was they changed jobs…

They were director of design! I am not part of that company so it’s possible that director is a joke there but in most companies that’s the highest level prior to the c suite/owners (public company/professional services firms). That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. Going from that to “just a coder” ie one team member of one tea…

Outside of the film industry, director is usually a joke title.
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