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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#131

Post by CivBase »

ironmagma wrote: post #114
CivBase wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does potential for costly mistakes result in greater perceived value and higher pay?

Higher risk begets higher premiums.

Why?

The relationship between contribution and compensation is obvious. If you bring more value to the company, the company compensates you directly with a portion of that value.

But why does a position with greater risk necessitate greater compensation?

EDIT: Everything below here was in the original post. However, I re-read it and realized it had little to do with the relationship between risk and compensation.

I don't buy the idea that managers are liable for the mistakes of their reports. That would cause a snowball effect in large organizations, resulting in extremely high turnover for leadership positions.

Managers share some liability for their reports' mistakes, but they also share some reward for their reports' successes. Those liabilities and rewards are split across all of their reports, resulting in what are usually relatively stable positions within a company. A lazy manager can get along by just regularly pruning reports who produce more liability than reward.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#132

Post by mtberatwork »

ballenf wrote: post #85
CivBase wrote: post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

Making a big mistake as a manager can cost the company a lot more than a big mistake as an individual Engineer, Architect or Developer, especially if you consider that the latter roles will catch many of each others' mistakes. The manager level can result in entire teams quitting, failing to support each other or an atmosphere where catching each others' mistakes is discouraged. Some jobs are paid based (roughly) on…

> Making a big mistake as a manager can cost the company a lot more than a big mistake as an individual Engineer, Architect or Developer, especially if you consider that the latter roles will catch many of each others' mistakes.

Of course anything is possible, but there is often a chain of managerial command (managers of managers) to catch mistakes. It's pretty hard for a single, middling manager to inflict costly mistakes anymore than an individual engineer. Also, I've seen management levels that are 0 - 1 subordinates deep (managers of none).

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#133

Post by ddelt »

ryandrake wrote: post #87
progre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always fought to stay a developer as well. It seems that as soon as I know a codebase well enough to be really productive, there is a "team lead" or "scrum master" role waiting. Once or twice I've even fallen for it but the result have always been more meetings, less customer interaction, more responsibility and somehow less power over the product. Pay has stayed the same of course.

Then on the other hand, you have unusual guys like me who are trying over and over to get into management, but 20+ years in I'm still at the bottom of the totem pole. It's always the same need-experience-to-get-experience catch-22: "Well, [JOE] already has management experience and you don't so [JOE] is now your manager." It's always a struggle: If you want X and don't want Y, somehow you're always going to be offere…

I’m right there with you - despite feeling like I’d be more passionate about being the more managerial and less “hands-on coder” on every team I’ve ever been on, including having a biz/IT degree vs pure CS, and having worked in a variety of industries in a variety of roles ... it’s always “well we want you to be the dev because reasons” and I can’t quite figure out what I’m missing. I have a feeling it’s just that my resume doesn’t say I’ve already been a manager and that when I interview, I don’t lie and tell people how I’ve managed teams of direct reports. That doesn’t mean I’m incapable, or that I wouldn’t be great at it, but I guess orgs see management as high risk so they never want to take a chance. Either that or I’m always doomed for some sort of “BUZZWORD-Ops” role

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#134

Post by bradlys »

emptyfile wrote: post #28
saghm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be excessively nitpicky, but the use of the phrase "_got_ demoted" (emphasis mine) implies to me a lack of control over the situation. It's technically correct, but it sounds like it was a punishment rather than what it actually was (namely, a career choice).

Same. English isn't my first language so I'm not sure, but the title doesn't' seem sincere when the subtitle reads "Kristina Lustig, formerly our Director of Design, explains why she took a new role as an associate software developer"

English is my first language. I'm American on top of it. This is a clickbait title. It conveys an incorrect meaning. People can talk about formal definitions all they want - it doesn't matter. Language isn't always about formal definitions - it's more often about how people use it. In this case - the headline is being used to grab eyes, is clickbait, and is wrong about the contents of the article.

Your new headline would be better but it wouldn't have attracted any views.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#135

Post by Geminidog »

VSerge wrote: post #119
skratlo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

Consider the last sentence : "I think most men and people in general like to think of themselves as non-biased so most of this happens as subconscious actions." Pretty sure this commenter thought of themselves as non-biased. Irony is a cruel mistress.

How is my statement biased? Men can suffer from unfair treatment as well. I never said anything to discount feminism, I simply stated one case where men are treated less well then women and I caveated that statement saying that this was based off of my own anecdotal experiences implying that your experience could be different.

Do you think it's possible to live in a world where women are the only gender that is mistreated? Or do you think it's more realistic to live in a world where infractions are committed against both genders?

This is off topic, but if my statement about this one case pissed you off because you're an ardent supporter of womens' rights I think you need to watch the video below and keep in mind... I literally never said anything AGAINST women's rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#136

Post by Gehinnn »

cperciva wrote: post #21
duckfruit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I'd call it clickbait. Whimsically worded, sure, but the author did literally go from being a Director of design to an associate software developer so it doesn't seem inaccurate to call it a demotion.

This reminds me of a joke about a violist who finds a magic lamp and asks to become a better musician. Promotion depends on perspective.

Do you mean this joke? [1] Don't disrespect the violists!

[1] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/ab5oht/a_violists_3_...)

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#137

Post by sethammons »

josephorjoe wrote: post #127
nomdep wrote: post #105

A terrible career move. As other commenter said, if there wasn't a pay cut, is because of the company charity. Now she has to be not only a good coder but a great one, (and in a tech stack she didn't had used already). Otherwise, a year from now, they might not feel so charitable, and the story will be "from director of design to fired IC". A friend of mine made a similar mistake once, believing the BS of the "parall…

Best career move I ever made was to quit a managerial job and learn coding. Three years later I was making more $$ as an IC with none of the stress and nuisance of management. Five years later I was making 2x my old salary and significantly happier w my day to day work. To each their own...

That's interesting. I'm facing the choice of going to management for a pay cut in the short term but with longer term potential upside.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#138

Post by aoeuhtns »

Great story! Could relate to some of the emotions as I went from a founder ceo in biotech to sales engineer in tech, to software engg, then manager, then back to software engg with some unintentional devops detour in the middle!

That 'demotion' from founder ceo to sales engg was rough... but since it was in different geographies, I actually made more money and life quality was better!

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#139

Post by carlisle_ »

Geminidog wrote: post #121
carlisle_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biase…

>I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. You can't find my anecdotal experiences to be untrue because you haven't experienced my anecdotal experience. This is physically impossible. What you can claim is that my anecdotal experiences do not apply to women in engineering corporations in general. However, this is not a claim that I made as I caveated my point with the fact that what I'm saying is based off of m…

>Why can't we focus on the rights of both genders?

Ask yourself that question. In response to somebody writing about their experience changing careers you brought up how men aren't treated fairly.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#140

Post by Geminidog »

zapdrive wrote: post #113
carlisle_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biase…

Found the feminist.

Nothing wrong with being a feminist. Both genders deserve equal treatment. I consider myself to be a feminist.
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