The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#121

Post by anaphor » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #26

Does it mean people are socialized into being gay ?

No, it just means that within the population they studied, the variation in whether individuals identified as gay could be explained more with environmental factors than genetic ones. It doesn't say that being gay is 25% genetic and 75% environmental, that's a huge misconception. If parents all treated their kids the same way, and they all had the same treatment in schools, etc, then you'd probably see more influence of genetics than environment. That's how heritability works, it's relative to the population and how homogeneous it is.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#122

Post by klmadfejno » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

ristlane wrote: post #34

Kye wrote: post #3

A lot of the search for a gay gene seems trapped in an outdated understanding of sexuality as a binary proposition: "you're either A or B." How do you even begin to contemplate a study on sexuality once you understand it as highly varied and fluid? Same with gender. They're bimodal distributions at best . You can't just crop off the confounding valleys and call what you do with them good science.

Not sure why you're being downvoted. You're right that human sexuality is nowhere near as clear cut as blonde/brown hair, or spotted fur on animals. Still, that doesn't mean genetics do not play a role in determining human sexuality, binary or otherwise.

Likely because it's just an incorrect statement, and vaguely accusatory. If you have a dataset of people that asks them if they identify as straight or gay, with no alternative, you're going to miss a lot of nuance, but you'll still likely have a useful dataset for extracting genetic effects. Most people would not describe their sexual orientation as fluid at all. You absolutely can crop off valleys and call it good science.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#123

Post by antattack » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

xirbeosbwo1234 wrote: post #46

Did anyone ever actually think there was a gay gene-- more accurately, allele? Homosexuality clearly has a genetic component, and we've known that for decades. But we've also known for decades that most traits are not controlled by a single gene and that human sexuality is not a binary matter. This seems like describing a launch to the ISS with the headline " No firmament ".

Looking inwards, attraction feels like pattern recognition combined with catecholamine release. So perhaps genes, but also hormones/environment would be responsible.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#124

Post by stemlord » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #86

flowerlad wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully, no. Because if true then it legitimizes conversation therapies.

But if they worked they wouldn’t be objectionable? Being forced into them would be objectionable, but being forced into your family farm doesn’t mean farming itself is bad. If conversion therapy was a thing that worked and you could choose it if you wanted, it would be like any other life choice - changing career, religion, nationality, etc.

They have never worked. It's a well-known truth amongst gay people that the conversion therapy "success stories" are people who chose to go back into the closet for the rest of their lives.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#125

Post by naebother » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

readams wrote: post #53

It's unlikely there's a gene that codes for being gay. Homosexuality instead is better thought of as more like why men have nipples. Obviously the nipples are not useful to the reproductive success of men, but genetics and natural selection are messy and there's likely no easy path to not having them in men while maintaining their function in women. For homosexuality, the systems of sexual attraction in the brain nee…

Not sure if nipples are the best analogy here. Formation of nipples is largely down to how fetuses develop; i.e. nipples form before sexual differentiation. And I believe in some mammals, males in fact do not have visible nipples.

https://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-men-have-nipples.ht...

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#126

Post by klmadfejno » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #22

"Ganna and his colleagues also used the analysis to estimate that up to 25% of sexual behaviour can be explained by genetics, with the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors — a figure similar to the findings of smaller studies." An argument for gay rights has been that people are "born that way". That appears to be false. Does this suggest that it may be possible to shape the environment to reduce the…

No. Being able to explain 25% of sexual behavior does not mean that the remaining portion has to be explained by other factors. Ignoring the fact that other things, like hormone profiles, have additional explanatory power, many biological processes are subject to noise. The best algorithm in the world can only predict a fair die toss 1 in 6 times.

It may be possible that culture is a factor, but literature reviews of sexual orientation incidence suggest that it does not vary significantly across time or place, which is a pretty compelling reason to think culture is an important factor.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#127

Post by LatteLazy » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

naebother wrote: post #125

readams wrote: post #53

It's unlikely there's a gene that codes for being gay. Homosexuality instead is better thought of as more like why men have nipples. Obviously the nipples are not useful to the reproductive success of men, but genetics and natural selection are messy and there's likely no easy path to not having them in men while maintaining their function in women. For homosexuality, the systems of sexual attraction in the brain nee…

Not sure if nipples are the best analogy here. Formation of nipples is largely down to how fetuses develop; i.e. nipples form before sexual differentiation. And I believe in some mammals, males in fact do not have visible nipples. https://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-men-have-nipples.ht...

I'm not OP but maybe it's the same: attraction to men gets developed before sexual differentiation then gets (inaccurately) overwritten later?

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#128

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

readams wrote: post #53

It's unlikely there's a gene that codes for being gay. Homosexuality instead is better thought of as more like why men have nipples. Obviously the nipples are not useful to the reproductive success of men, but genetics and natural selection are messy and there's likely no easy path to not having them in men while maintaining their function in women. For homosexuality, the systems of sexual attraction in the brain nee…

[deleted]

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#129

Post by LatteLazy » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #99

readams wrote: post #53

It's unlikely there's a gene that codes for being gay. Homosexuality instead is better thought of as more like why men have nipples. Obviously the nipples are not useful to the reproductive success of men, but genetics and natural selection are messy and there's likely no easy path to not having them in men while maintaining their function in women. For homosexuality, the systems of sexual attraction in the brain nee…

Kin-selection hypothesis also allow for some fraction of asexual or homosexual population being a positive overall (from an evolutionary perspective).

There is good evidence that gay males are much more involved with their neices and nephews [0] and that their sisters are more fertile[1].

[0] https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2010/02/05/study-su...

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15539346/

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#130

Post by jodrellblank » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

stemlord wrote: post #124

jodrellblank wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if they worked they wouldn’t be objectionable? Being forced into them would be objectionable, but being forced into your family farm doesn’t mean farming itself is bad. If conversion therapy was a thing that worked and you could choose it if you wanted, it would be like any other life choice - changing career, religion, nationality, etc.

They have never worked. It's a well-known truth amongst gay people that the conversion therapy "success stories" are people who chose to go back into the closet for the rest of their lives.

I think my comment isn't clear enough. That they don’t work is why they shouldn’t be legitimised. They are offering a fraudulent or misleading service to anyone choosing to attend, and forcing someone to attend is a cruelty.

I read the parent comment as saying “I hope homosexuality isn’t learned /because/ that would legitimise conversion therapy”, but I say that would be a fine hypothetical world - it’s objecting to the wrong thing, conversion therapy isn’t inherently a bad thing, it’s only bad in worlds where it doesn’t work, like the real world.

Another way of saying it is, if homosexuality is socially determined (in the real world), why fear that would “legitimise” a conversion therapy which doesn’t work (in the real world)?