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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#651

Post by gbear605 »

tengbretson wrote: post #470
gbear605 wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. Unless you’re raising a deer herd, and claiming ownership over them, in which case sure.

When you put it that way it kind of sounds like managing the animal conversion of biomass into methane isn't the actual goal then.

If you’re raising the deer, then you’re responsible for the externalities produced by your economic pursuit. If you’re not raising the deer, then they’re the responsibility of humankind as a whole, who is already paying for those externalities (by having to suffer from climate change). The point of a carbon (or methane) tax is to ensure that you pay for your externalities, both to disincentivize you from having them and to repay everyone else for the cost that they’ve been dealt by you.

Suppose you set up a polluting machine that solely emitted carbon, perhaps for art. That goal may be reasonable, but by engaging in it you’re hurting others. A carbon tax makes them whole (by either paying for carbon capture or by direct compensation) and disincentives you from doing it in the first place. If instead it was a naturally occurring polluting machine (a herd of deer, say) then we’d either want to remove it or do something to counteract it, and that cost is paid by everyone. In this case, we’d probably choose to plant trees, rather than killing the deer. (Although the deer population in North America is out of control, so perhaps killing them might be the right choice.)

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#652

Post by foerbert »

asutekku wrote: post #476
Baeocystin wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I know more than one person who would turn up their nose at a 'veggie meat' sandwich, but would happily tuck in to a falafel wrap. Marketing matters!

Yes, but those people are usually already vegetarians. ”Fake meat” is meant for people who still do it meat, not for someone who has completely banished it from their lives.

Is it? I find it hard to believe that. If that was true, the market for these products would be vanishingly small. Every potential customer would be merely in the process of transitioning out of the market.

I'm certainly a counter-example, and know a few others. Though I also do know one person that has no desire for them, but they also tend to avoid more prepared or processed foods entirely.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#653

Post by bobthepanda »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #600
VBprogrammer wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

That is due to extreme levels of inequality in the US and one of the stingiest welfare systems in the whole developed world. It is not due to food prices. If that was the deciding factor then Norwegians and Japanese would be starving. A lot of the low food prices in the US also contribute to this poverty. The low prices come at the back of people in the food industry doing long days for shitty pay. If the “solution”…

Japanese people are maybe not starving, but because of high COL cause by tariffs a few years ago Taiwan became a richer country by PPP per capita.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#654

Post by tomstoms »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #582
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Just recently, the carnivore diet has taken off for multiple people, and even just significantly reducing plant-based foods in favor of animal-based foods is showing to help many people. There's also the theor…

>> There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Please note I didn't comment that "anyone can live vegan just fine".

Well to address the point you are making about poor people. Looking at the current poor population of North America, the cheap meat based diet is nothing short of a disaster to general public health ridden with all sorts of dietary caused diseases such as obesity, diabetes, coronary diseases and so on. Surely, a shift towards plant based diets for this demographic couldn’t make things any worse than it already is.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#655

Post by curryst »

asutekku wrote: post #476
Baeocystin wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I know more than one person who would turn up their nose at a 'veggie meat' sandwich, but would happily tuck in to a falafel wrap. Marketing matters!

Yes, but those people are usually already vegetarians. ”Fake meat” is meant for people who still do it meat, not for someone who has completely banished it from their lives.

That's not true. I know very few meat eaters who don't like falafel (and many of those who don't are picky eaters and hate anything that isn't mac and cheese). I get falafel and meat about equally; falafel doesn't leave me with that "I just ate 3/4 of a pound of greasy meat" feeling that shawarma can.

I will honestly say that I typically prefer vegetarian food that isn't fake meat. Indian food with paneer is really good, black bean burgers are fantastic, pad thai with tofu is really good.

I am somewhat partial to the vegetarian spiced meats, though. Vegetarian chorizo is remarkably close. I think because the spices are an overwhelming part of the flavor, all it's really missing is a little more chewiness.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#656

Post by Grustaf »

henrikschroder wrote: post #644
Grustaf wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But nobody claims the experience the of eating ultra processed fake meat is BETTER than the real thing, do they? So how could us haters be “missing out”?

> So how could us haters be “missing out”? Because it has the taste and texture of meat, which you don't eat. So eating these would be a way for you to experience this taste and this texture, and that should at least have some novelty value for you. Backing up to the meta discussion, I love how these meat alternatives, and near-future things like cultured meat or synthetic milk test everyone's convictions and prejudi…

Since I eat normal meat, I’m not missing out by not eating fake meat.

I’m generally against fake and highly processed things, I don’t want them in my life, and definitely not on my plate. That would definitely include lab meat. So I’ll keep eating regular meat until the fake meat industrial complex gets it outlawed, and then I can just eat vegetarian food.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#657

Post by esperent »

GordonS wrote: post #575
esperent wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments read as contrarian and determined to find fault with this product. If your instinct is to dislike it so much, the answer is simple: don't eat it. Each of the ingredients bar "natural flavors" (which usually means a proprietary spice blend or msg) can be found with a simple Google search - as someone else said, konjac is an Asian vegetable, textured wheat protein has been a staple of vegan cooking for de…

This is a really unkind interpretation of my comments - I am certainly not trying to find fault, merely sharing my initial reaction to a list of seemingly strange ingredients. You may be familiar with these ingredients, but that doesn't mean anyone who isn't used to highly processed food is "wrong" for not knowing what they even are.

However, you have the internet and the ability to research a thing before making your mind up on whether it's good or bad. You didn't do that, instead you listed ingredients and for each one essentially went "weird, never heard of it, yuck" which is a level of sophistication regarding food that I'd expect of a teenager or child. Here on HN you should put a bit more effort in before being dismissive of the unknown.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#658

Post by theshrike79 »

bushbaba wrote: post #468
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Tariffs are complicated as fuck. Trump tried to half-ass it off the cuff and fucked up a lot of industries.

People import and export the weirdest shit with China. Even a small adjustment on tariffs might cause unseen ripple effect on businesses.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#659

Post by Grustaf »

henrikschroder wrote: post #645
Grustaf wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not vegetarian and it’s not about feeling superior. I just happen to think fake meat and fake sweeteners are some of the most absurd things in modern society. I prefer food to be natural and unprocessed.

> > Meat exists but some people want to go vegetarian without sacrificing anything. > I’m not vegetarian and it’s not about feeling superior. Well, clearly you have some martyr complex issues around it.

I’m not even a vegetarian, in what sense would I be a martyr?

I just think people should eat authentic and low processed food.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#660

Post by nemo44x »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #586
hombre_fatal wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with poor people being unable to afford a luxury item based on animal exploitation and suffering? Usually people respond to this pointing out some supposed nutrition advantages of meat as if the USA, with the cheapest meat in the world, is somehow the paragon of health and cuisine. Though I'd be down for a government sponsored, optional multivitamin.

The problem is that people in the US (and really most of the western world) have grown up eating meat, been told that they should desire meat, that meat is an essential part of their diet and, to a certain extent, that not eating meat is unmanly and weak. Meat consumption is so ingrained that any attempt to curtail it is met with fierce opposition, because people feel as if it's an attack on their identity.

I don’t think that’s the case. Look around the world and you’ll see that as a country has become more prosperous that their meat consumption has increased. I don’t think it’s because people suddenly became more “manly”. It’s because of a simple fact: most humans love meat.

Food is more than a personal identity. It’s a major part of people’s culture globally and meat plays a primary role in many cultures. I think most people would eat more meat if they had the means to.

Only about 3.5% of Americans are vegetarian. Designing policy that favors this group would be ridiculous. Subsidizing meat and democratizing access to it is good policy since nearly everyone benefits from it.

Saying that I hope “plant meat” continues to improve and finds a market outside the novelty it mainly is today. But this can’t be forced on people.

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