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Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

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Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#71
post #51
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tit-for-tat assumes a relatively equivalent level of negative outcome for each. There's very little reason to assume an alien civilization would be, and a few reasons to assume they would be quite a bit more advanced and with more resources. Responding in a friendly manner to a direct communication is a good idea. Telling your whole tribe to run to the beach and look at and call to the large wooden boat passing by on…

One can imagine a scenario where the only way our species survives is to detect an alien civilization before they detect us, and to nuke their homeworld preemtively because they would do the same to us. Tit-for-tat doesn't really work when a first-strike can kill everyone. Or to put it another way, tit-for-tat only works in iterated prisoner's dilemma. If an encounter with aliens is more like a single-round prisoner'…

> Or to put it another way, tit-for-tat only works in iterated prisoner's dilemma. If an encounter with aliens is more like a single-round prisoner's dilemma, we're in a bit of a bind.

The only way the dark forest scenario is not an iterated prisoner's dilemma (albeit an odd one) is if no information about the encounter can leak to subsequent first encounters.

In other words, if you're going to eliminate anyone you encounter with a preemptive first strike, you had better hope that you have the means to prevent your victims from sending distress calls and warnings so no one ever hears about your actions before they encounter you.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?

Americans killed 99% of its indigenous population, alright robbed or bought under heavy pressure a large portion of its territory, it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, and barely anybody mentions it now. America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old.

> it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world,

By which you mean "if I were sole judge of everything happening in the world" - but you aren't, and it isn't.

> and barely anybody mentions it now.

You just mentioned it. And your comrades mention it all the time, both in the US and abroad. Scarcely any discussion involving anything political - not even having anything to do with the US, as for example this one - can pass without mentioning it. I leave it for you to judge whether "barely anybody" adequately describes yourself and your comrades.

> America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old.

Yes, and? 5000 years, and it culminated in the Cultural Revolution, where educated people were hunted down, free thought was suppressed, cultural artifacts and knowledge were forcefully destroyed, all traditional values were discarded, tens of millions of people were persecuted and many of them murdered, and country's development has been set back by decades at least. I'm sure there are a lot of things over China's 5000 years of history which one can be justifiably proud about, but these years should be source of shame, not pride. And yet, the same organization that perpetrated it still rules China, and under essentially the same ideology, only slightly tweaked.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#73

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

Wow. I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue. There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.

> There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out.

There is almost as much vilification of the USG as there is glorification.

For example, a stereotypical USG Agent Gone Rogue character can just as easily be the hero as the villain in a Hollywood blockbuster (with the rest of the agency, or at least it's leadership, serving as the opposing villain or hero as needed). I don't know enough about Chinese cinema to say for certain whether the equivalent is true in that context, but the superficial impression I have is that it is not.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#74
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press isn’t just supposed to report government propaganda of how everything is going great because invariable while some people are benefitting, others are suffering. Be it the civilians in Yemen being starved by a Saudi-led American backed proxy war, or the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Yes, China has raised a huge number of people out of poverty, mostly thanks to Deng inviting in foreign investment, but Xi is turning Ch…

Focusing on the negatives of your own country is fine because the readers have the ability to judge for themselves. Focusing only on the negatives of a foreign country is not unless the goal is to agitate the populace for conflict and war. Take your imagined trilateral water war as an example, have you looked into how minor the supply is to India? Have you considered the fact that damming for electricity has little e…

>"Focusing only on the negatives of a foreign country is not unless the goal is to agitate the populace for conflict and war."

Western news media news is designed for western audience consumption. Pointing out the suffering of people in other countries is something that people with empathy want to know about. For example, when Western media points out the suffering of Palestinians, we hear that this is because of anti-Israel bias. The reality is, most people aren't opposed to Israel, they're concerned with the suffering imposed by the occupation, and the ancillary effects on their own national interest due to regional instability. The goal of the media isn't conflict and war, it's awareness and political change. If there's a genocide happening, I want to know about it. If the US backed Saudi proxy war in Yemen is destroying huge number of lives because of American made weapons or policy, I want to know about it, and if a large US trading partner is locking people in Xinjiang and even manufacturing with slave labor, I'd rather buy my products somewhere else.

>"Take your imagined trilateral water war as an example, have you looked into how minor the supply is to India?".

Of course, have you? There are 130 million people who live in the Brahmaputra basin. And 1 billion downstream of the Hindu Kush. You don't think India is concerned about the dams going up in Kashmir and the Tibetan Plateau? "damming for electricity has little effect on total volume of flow" you're talking past damns, the concern is over future mega dams.

>"Otoh, when US dammed the Colorado the water was diverted for agriculture and urban consumption. The river basically dried up before reaching Mexico."

Yeah, and that was bad for both the environment, and for Mexico, which is exactly why people are concerned about China's activity, not just for geo-political reasons and the 1+ billion people dependent on the Tibetan plateau water supply, but the environmental damage that could result as well. Your own example shows exactly why those dependent on Tibetan and Hindu Kush supplies should be concerned about dam building, in which they have little say over.

By all means, use past US transgressions as a road map for why we should be concerned. Take Belt and Road Initiative. Sucker someone into taking a large loan, make them use the loaned money to buy from your own country's companies, and then when the debtor can't pay, seize concessions. The US played this out extremely well all over the world (see _Confessions of an Economic Hitman_ https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins...), and it's being repeated: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...

It's because of how awful the US's policy was in doing the same thing in South America and Africa that I'm concerned now about what I see happening now, essentially neo-colonialism.

However, the real issue I sense, is that a lot of 五毛 and 玻璃心 don't want to hear any criticism, even if it's legitimate, because of elevated nationalism dialed up by Xi over the years. And it is this rising nationalism, in the US with Trump, in Europe (e.g. in Hungary), and in China that we should be worried about. We've managed to temporarily put down Trumpism here, but Xi made himself President for life, and authoritarianism combined with rising nationalism and economic power is not a good recipe, if the 20th century taught us anything.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#75
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you even know who Deng Xiaopeng is? Changing systems without a massive, disruptive loss of life is actually a huge accomplishment. No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. It had the side effect of not changing names of various things.

Yes, I know who he is, but he didn't change as much as you try to represent - China is still under the full control of the CCP. It's like Martin Bormann would take control over NDSAP, denounce some mistakes made by overzealous comrades, announced some modest reforms, and proclaim the new era - while NSDAP is still in control of Germany. > No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. China didn't either…

This thread started under the topic "believe it or not, Chinese people are actually pretty happy with their government given the record over the last few decades".

Can you think about what would be persuasive to such a person?

They're not American, didn't grow up on your information diet, and really don't give a shit about what's "communist" or not. Their economy is state-controlled to the tune of Norway, or a little less so. Who cares. They are all doing way better than a generation or 2 ago, and here in America, we are comparatively struggling. They see this. Why should they want our system instead?

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#76
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist party/politics aside, I agree that the beginning of the book had seriously next-level sci-fi creativity, but the last third of the book really rushed the plot. 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Still, great material overall. Can't wait to see an eventual 3bp movie.

> 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory.

> Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory.

I had a similar problem, but don't think it was a lack of character details, but rather that the dialog seems rather undifferentiated. What distinguished one character from another was only what they say, and almost never how they say it.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue. There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.

> There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. There is almost as much vilification of the USG as there is glorification. For example, a stereotypical USG Agent Gone Rogue character can just as easily be the hero as the villain in a Hollywood blockbuster (with the rest of the agency, or at least it's leadership, serving as the opposing vil…

In the book we're discussing, the Cultural Revolution is presented as a catastrophe where the heroes are well-meaning scientists who's neutral observations of nature are twisted into being counter-revolutionary.

The book covers the Cultural Revolution like US films cover Vietnam: not favorably.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#78
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! I don't think the political correctness or other changes would have really bothered me, it was much more about structure. IIRC, there were some "chapters" in Dark Forest that were... over an hour? In Chinese, does the third book also go back to a more ... narrative style? That is, did you consider the first and third books to be "similar in style" but Dark Forest to stand out? Thanks again! P.S. I struggled t…

Yes, I also think Dark Forest's structure is quite "different", but it didn't bother me: I read the entire book in one day so lengthy chapters didn't matter.

Thanks again! I’ll consider this settled: people prefer Ken Liu, but that’s not why the second book was different :).

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#79
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the negatives of your own country is fine because the readers have the ability to judge for themselves. Focusing only on the negatives of a foreign country is not unless the goal is to agitate the populace for conflict and war. Take your imagined trilateral water war as an example, have you looked into how minor the supply is to India? Have you considered the fact that damming for electricity has little e…

>"Focusing only on the negatives of a foreign country is not unless the goal is to agitate the populace for conflict and war." Western news media news is designed for western audience consumption. Pointing out the suffering of people in other countries is something that people with empathy want to know about. For example, when Western media points out the suffering of Palestinians, we hear that this is because of ant…

The point I was responding to was whether the western audience is well served if the media only focus on the negative side of the China story. It is not the same as the local paper's focus on crimes and tragedies. My main concern is that my boys don't get conscripted into serving in a future war promoted by people who don't paint a realistic picture of the world, on both what China is and on how much power the West (or anyone else) has over China.

P.S. As for the Brahmaputra river, according to Indian officials: "Out of five major tributaries of Brahmaputra, only three come from China, rest are from Arunachal Pradesh. Of the total water entering (Brahmaputra), only 7% is contributed by precipitation in China." https://www.livemint.com/Politics/jksr4ft6Jn5wjvJAEGwD5L/Ind...

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist party/politics aside, I agree that the beginning of the book had seriously next-level sci-fi creativity, but the last third of the book really rushed the plot. 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Still, great material overall. Can't wait to see an eventual 3bp movie.

The huge cast of characters was definitely a challenge for me as well. But I wonder sometimes if it’s more a cultural difference than simply some kind of “failure” on the authors part. Have you seen those videos where old communist leaders gave speeches, they declare some good news, some achievement, and the crowd claps and cheers, and so does the leader . Watch Stalin, watch Mao. To a westerner it looks like they ar…

Same idea: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-r...
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