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Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

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Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With his current profile if he wished to renounce his support and seek asylum, he could. It would be a stinging betrayal for the party, more effective than any protest that was ever waged for HK... And it wouldn't endanger him or his fortune.

It is well known that the CCP holds one's family hostage in cases when one goes abroad, as collateral against one's return: https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-of... https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent... It is an open secret that this is the case for many students who come to American universities, and this is often how they coerce them into sending back IP and trade se…

I think it's true in those circumstances, but I don't believe that's part of a systematic policy.

I would imagine that the possibility of Cixin Liu leaving would be contingent on whatever the idiosyncrasies are of his personal circumstances. I would say he's not necessarily constrained by the examples you've cited, though they raise a valid concern.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#32
post #29

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring b…

The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#33
This seems like the most controversial bit here:

> There’s a strange contradiction revealed by the naïveté and kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe: On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial intelligences exist, they must be civilizations bound by universal, noble, moral constraints, as if cherishing and loving different forms of life are parts of a self-evident universal code of conduct.

> I think it should be precisely the opposite: Let’s turn the kindness we show toward the stars to members of the human race on Earth and build up the trust and understanding between the different peoples and civilizations that make up humanity. But for the universe outside the solar system, we should be ever vigilant, and be ready to attribute the worst of intentions to any Others that might exist in space. For a fragile civilization like ours, this is without a doubt the most responsible path.

I think his books a good reminder that even the interstellar equivalent of saying "howdy neighbor" is incredibly risky. And I agree that we should behave better towards each other even if I don't look forward to "a day when humanity will form a harmonious whole" if that means world government and suppression of "non-harmonious" opinions. On the other hand, I don't think that alien species are doomed to be adversaries. Populations don't need to grow forever exponentially, and empires don't need to always expand.

For my part, I think we should be careful about announcing our presence and should be very careful around any alien civilization, especially those that are more technologically advanced than ourselves. But we also could learn a lot from each other, and so initially being friendly and abiding by a tit-for-tat strategy if they become aggressive seems like a good approach.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#34
post #33

This seems like the most controversial bit here: > There’s a strange contradiction revealed by the naïveté and kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe: On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial…

Tit-for-tat assumes a relatively equivalent level of negative outcome for each. There's very little reason to assume an alien civilization would be, and a few reasons to assume they would be quite a bit more advanced and with more resources.

Responding in a friendly manner to a direct communication is a good idea. Telling your whole tribe to run to the beach and look at and call to the large wooden boat passing by on the other hand...

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#35
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will be different default stances on international politics, but the books did not read as jingoistic to me.

Most Americans are under the impression that Chinese citizens secretly hate their government but can’t speak up due to the authoritarian tendencies of the ruling CCP. Of course, any news that contradict this feeling can be ascribed to CCP propaganda. And of course, when asked to examine the source of this feeling, it can never be American propaganda but cold hard facts.

I am a Chinese living in Europe. Almost all the articles in media I read in Western media on China are negative. They only talk about HK, Uyghurs. But China has many exciting things happening and very dynamic. But in another hand, I saw the western media just criticize everything, it's like the whole world only has negative things happening. I personally don't hate the Chinese government. The people's living standard is hugely improved these two decades, and my friends in China are mostly happy about their life.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#36

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will be different default stances on international politics, but the books did not read as jingoistic to me.

> I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so?

That always seemed like a trite argument of those who want to justify their own behavior, and is a cop out in a story.

The point of survival is that values change, and can return, but survival is absolute. You fight until there is no other option, then you surrender with the hope that hat you can work towards that goal again in the future.

Similarly, the correct choice between slavery and death is slavery, as slavery contains the chance of freedom but death does not. That's not to say the correct choice between slavery and a chance of death is the same thing. But people like to speak in absolutes without this nuance in a way that leads to interesting thought patterns in others that hear it and parrot it.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring b…

The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.

> The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution

No...

At maximum, "cultural revolutionaries" were just silenced for one generation.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What has happened in China is that a billion farmers are massively, undescribably better off. After Great Leap forward? Cultural Revolution? What about the farmers of the marginalized communities in Tibet and Xinjiang. I am not saying all that gets printed in Western press is true but it is not all fabricated up as well. There was an actual cost to getting here, which might not have happened in a democratic setup.…

Can you name the dates and major events within the Great Leap forward or Cultural Revolution without googling and reading wikipedia? I'm not trying to assert authority here but you could look at the last 500 years, the last 200, 100, years, the last 50 years.. cherrypicking a 25 year period that happened between 70-45 years ago is kinda weird if you're after understanding rather than scoring points.

In the same vein, why should we be obsessing about mere 12 years of German history, and one guy (who isn't even a German but an Austrian!) instead of looking back at hundreds of years of European history and ignoring that unfortunate, but ultimately minor, incident? I mean, if we're about understanding, not scoring points.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#39
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans are under the impression that Chinese citizens secretly hate their government but can’t speak up due to the authoritarian tendencies of the ruling CCP. Of course, any news that contradict this feeling can be ascribed to CCP propaganda. And of course, when asked to examine the source of this feeling, it can never be American propaganda but cold hard facts.

I am a Chinese living in Europe. Almost all the articles in media I read in Western media on China are negative. They only talk about HK, Uyghurs. But China has many exciting things happening and very dynamic. But in another hand, I saw the western media just criticize everything, it's like the whole world only has negative things happening. I personally don't hate the Chinese government. The people's living standard…

The press isn’t just supposed to report government propaganda of how everything is going great because invariable while some people are benefitting, others are suffering.

Be it the civilians in Yemen being starved by a Saudi-led American backed proxy war, or the Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

Yes, China has raised a huge number of people out of poverty, mostly thanks to Deng inviting in foreign investment, but Xi is turning China into a surveillance state, using a few terrorist events to justify large scale oppression in Xinjiang, and the CCP is on balance, a corrupt inner circle of grifters getting rich off the economic rise. How does China’s parliament delegates have 100 billionaires in it?

Xi’s family net worth has widely been reported to be hundreds of millions. How did they earn it?

I’m not willing to give my own government a pass for the good things they’ve done (eg Obama on healthcare) and excuse the bad things they’ve done (extrajudicial drone killings)

And I don’t think giving a free pass on massive Corruption, an oppressive police state in Xinjiang, etc is justified because the economy is good.

So invariably someone’s going to claim I’m just getting my info from bias western media, but I’ll just tell you I have traveled all over Xinjiang and speak passable Mandarin, in addition to having lived in China for a while. You can quite clearly see the overwhelming security apparatus in Xinjiang on every street corner and road, and I don’t need CNN to tell what my eyes see.

Like White people dismissing the conditions of Black people in the US, it’s really easy for Han Chinese to think the Uyghur minority concerns are blown out of proportion. I had many Han friends tell me not to go to Xinjiang, that it was far too dangerous. The reality is, I never once felt threatened by Uyghurs, they were incredibly friendly and hospitable. I was more nervous from soldiers with rifles everywhere, and constant road checkpoints demanding my photo and passport every few kilometers.

If you live in a Tier-1/Tier-2/Tier-3 city, it's really easy to dismiss the complaints of minority provinces or rural poor, especially when the one view of what's happening you get comes from state media.

I love China, am hopeful by its steady rise, and the world will be a better place with another advanced wealthy civilization of a billion people, and hopefully the whole 7 billion people on the planet can be uplifted. But it is not going to be served by a corrupt authoritarian government of grifters getting more and more control and power over of a large fraction of the world's economy and people.

Are the foreign press wrong to worry about China building massive dams and threatening India's water supply for example? Pakistan, China, and India are involved in a 3 way war over fresh water that affects 2+ billion people, and all of them have nuclear weapons.

The press should be looking at things that are harmful, not just saying "Good job government". FDR did a lot of good things for the US, but he also locked up 100,000+ Japanese in camps. The founding fathers did a lot of good in writing the US Constitution, but they also owned slaves. Criticism of government is a good thing.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.

> The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution No... At maximum, "cultural revolutionaries" were just silenced for one generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping#Early_life_and_educ...

The bit where his sister committed suicide during the cultural revolution jumps out as sort of character forming, but in more general terms, do you have any chinese party sources praising the cultural revolution? The closest I can think of is the now vanished Bo Xilai.

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