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Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

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Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#61

Post by chacha2 »

quesera wrote: post #41
elihu wrote: post #33

This seems like the most controversial bit here: > There’s a strange contradiction revealed by the naïveté and kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe: On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial…

I can think of a few simple (maybe simplistic) reasons for the dichotomy: * We imagine theoretical "people"/beings to be good, but are confronted with the complicated reality of our neighbors. Non-human entities remain strictly theoretical, untainted by the same reality. * We see spacefaring beings as advanced beyond ourselves, and aspirationally believe that goodness accrues with advancement. Or at the very least, t…

Another idea, maybe a certain type of person is the one pondering intergalactic relations. I'm not sure all humans would be so friendly if they came to think about it.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#62

Post by nojokes »

pochamago wrote: post #58
slowmovintarget wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity has been fairly responsive to modern reforms. Logic notwithstanding, you sweep a hand and say "God created them too, they are siblings from another star." Granted, that'd be a really hard sell for most mainstream branches of any religion. But, to your point, you said some major religion, and there are already some major religions that declare Christians to be OK to kill.

Definitely going to depend on the religion, and even the sect. Catholicism already has doctrine to deal with it developed back when there were stories about inhuman dog people inhabiting the continent of Africa.

Can you be more specific?

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#63

Post by cambalache »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #44
alpineidyll3 wrote: post #2

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

Wow. I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue. There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.

"Do what I say not what I do" is a universal mantra, very common of course here in HN.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#64

Post by free_rms »

smsm42 wrote: post #60
free_rms wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I guess.

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?

Do you even know who Deng Xiaopeng is?

Changing systems without a massive, disruptive loss of life is actually a huge accomplishment. No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. It had the side effect of not changing names of various things.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#65

Post by cambalache »

smsm42 wrote: post #60
free_rms wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I guess.

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?

Americans killed 99% of its indigenous population, alright robbed or bought under heavy pressure a large portion of its territory, it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, and barely anybody mentions it now. America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#66

Post by cambalache »

woshicoolbe wrote: post #35
newen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans are under the impression that Chinese citizens secretly hate their government but can’t speak up due to the authoritarian tendencies of the ruling CCP. Of course, any news that contradict this feeling can be ascribed to CCP propaganda. And of course, when asked to examine the source of this feeling, it can never be American propaganda but cold hard facts.

I am a Chinese living in Europe. Almost all the articles in media I read in Western media on China are negative. They only talk about HK, Uyghurs. But China has many exciting things happening and very dynamic. But in another hand, I saw the western media just criticize everything, it's like the whole world only has negative things happening. I personally don't hate the Chinese government. The people's living standard…

You are correct but you are missing the key ingredient. Western media criticizes western and non-western governments all the same (to different degrees of course).But in other realms (things like cinema, sports, music,literature, videogames) the western people, their way of life, their worldview, and their history are lionized and romanticized while the non-western side of history is still presented as barbaric, brutish and retrograde. So not only Putin,Xi,Bolsonaro or Modi suck but the people "over there" are gangsters, killers, terrorists and the enemies to conquer and defeat. You need to be moved into tears by the story of a little kid from Kansas who went to Vietnam or Iraq though.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#67

Post by Elaine-H »

boulos wrote: post #57
Elaine-H wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the trilogy in Chinese but only the first book in English. The original Dark Forest is perfectly fine. Many people suggested it has the best storytelling among the three. 1. Ken Liu is generally considered (by people who have read the trilogy in both languages) a better translator 2. the Dark Forest's structure does feel a little "literary" to me, which might make you felt "the chapters were strangely broken u…

Thanks! I don't think the political correctness or other changes would have really bothered me, it was much more about structure. IIRC, there were some "chapters" in Dark Forest that were... over an hour? In Chinese, does the third book also go back to a more ... narrative style? That is, did you consider the first and third books to be "similar in style" but Dark Forest to stand out? Thanks again! P.S. I struggled t…

Yes, I also think Dark Forest's structure is quite "different", but it didn't bother me: I read the entire book in one day so lengthy chapters didn't matter.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#68

Post by Elaine-H »

pasabagi wrote: post #32
elihu wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring b…

The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.

Yes or no, Deng was obviously against the Cultural Revolution, but Xi isn't so.

Evidence: "The Two 'Cannot Negates'" - In English: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00094609.2016.12... - In Chinese: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%A9%E5%80%8B%E4%B8%8D%E8...

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#69

Post by yongjik »

elihu wrote: post #29
alpineidyll3 wrote: post #2

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring b…

I don't think the trilogy portrayed modern (21st century) China with much positivity, or in fact much thought at all. Most political interactions (other than flashbacks to the Cultural Revolution era) are happening in an alternate universe, so that the author can avoid making unnecessary political remarks - just like Captain America never mentions Bush or Obama, even though he's fighting for America against Nazis.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#70

Post by smsm42 »

free_rms wrote: post #64
smsm42 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?

Do you even know who Deng Xiaopeng is? Changing systems without a massive, disruptive loss of life is actually a huge accomplishment. No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. It had the side effect of not changing names of various things.

Yes, I know who he is, but he didn't change as much as you try to represent - China is still under the full control of the CCP. It's like Martin Bormann would take control over NDSAP, denounce some mistakes made by overzealous comrades, announced some modest reforms, and proclaim the new era - while NSDAP is still in control of Germany.

> No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly.

China didn't either. Unless by "communism" you mean whatever Marx meant as the ultimate point of history - classless moneyless post-scarcity society with no property and no suffering and basically paradise. Obviously nobody transitioned out of it at all because it never existed. If you mean actual society built in China, it didn't transition out of anything - it allowed some modest economic freedoms, under the tight control of the CCP of course, but the idea of state-controlled centralized economy which is subject to single-party rule and complete absence of the idea of any individual rights is firmly in place.

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