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Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

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Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#41

Post by quesera »

elihu wrote: post #33

This seems like the most controversial bit here: > There’s a strange contradiction revealed by the naïveté and kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe: On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial…

I can think of a few simple (maybe simplistic) reasons for the dichotomy:

* We imagine theoretical "people"/beings to be good, but are confronted with the complicated reality of our neighbors. Non-human entities remain strictly theoretical, untainted by the same reality.

* We see spacefaring beings as advanced beyond ourselves, and aspirationally believe that goodness accrues with advancement. Or at the very least, that our trivial little human problems are beneath the concerns of sufficiently-advanced societies.

* We believe that much human conflict is driven by resource scarcity, and that a spacefaring culture surely does not lack for resources.

The opposite conclusion can be drawn from one of the other major drivers of human conflict: religious/etc ideology.

We humans have no (widespread) ideology that is so nihilistic as to advocate for the elimination of all humans, but we are pretty good about constructing ideologies that would eliminate large percentages of other humans.

If we made contact with another civilization (or were made contact with), I would be shocked if some major religion didn't declare the aliens to be apostate/devilspawn/etc -- because how else could a non-Earth-based civilization fit into the mythology?

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#42

Post by Elaine-H »

boulos wrote: post #16

If there's anyone out there that has read the trilogy in both the original Mandarin as well as the English translations, I'd love to get their take on the effect of translation. If I remember correctly, I found The Three Body Problem super pleasant to read and engaging. By contrast, I liked the idea of Dark Forest but found it almost painful to read. The chapters were strangely broken up (some extremely long, etc.) a…

I read the trilogy in Chinese but only the first book in English.

The original Dark Forest is perfectly fine. Many people suggested it has the best storytelling among the three.

1. Ken Liu is generally considered (by people who have read the trilogy in both languages) a better translator

2. the Dark Forest's structure does feel a little "literary" to me, which might make you felt "the chapters were strangely broken up".

3. I heard that they made many changes in the English version to meet "the political correctness of the western world", which might be another contributing factor of your painful read.

(Liu Cixin on Joel Martinsen, 2015-04-19, https://m.newsmth.net/article/SF/370834): --- here comes my blunt translation ---

"Very reliable, Joel Martinsen's Chinese is very good, his Mandarin is better than mine, and he works hard and is very dedicated. There are more than 1000 modifications made in the English version of Dark Forest.

The only problem is: he only goes to vegetarian restaurants.

BTW, the modifications of Dark Forest have been just completed. There are more modifications compared to the first book, deleted everything related to Ball Lightning, one of the Wallfacer's strategy has been completely changed. Besides that, the editor of TOR is a Feminist and is very strict, sexual discriminations are recognized here and there. Example 1, when words such as "purity" and "angelic" used too often it becomes sexual discrimination, so their usage needs to be limited. Example 2, the secretary-general of the United Nations is a beauty is considered as sexual discrimination. Example 3, all Wallfacers are male is considered as sexual discrimination (but this hasn't been changed, I argued that all American presidents are male, though the editor argued that they will have a female president soon). These changes are a huge workload for me and Joel, very exhausting, but finally completed."

--- translation ends ---

Some context: - "Chinese" refers to the Chinese written language, which is universal across China, "Mandarin" refers to the official spoken language of China. Many people, including Liu Cixin, have accent when speaking Mandarin. That's why he said "Joel Martinsen's Chinese is very good, his Mandarin is better than mine".

- the vegetarian part is just kidding

- Ball Lightning is another popular science fiction from Liu Cixin

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#43

Post by lq313c »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #2

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

One should be able to enjoy the works of another based on the work's own merits, separate from the creator's political or personal beliefs. I can enjoy H.P. Lovecraft's stories, despite the author being an abject racist; or like Ford cars, despite Henry Ford's antisemitism and admiration for Hitler. If we would shun all the works of another because we disagree on politics, the world would be a small and boring place indeed.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#44

Post by _carbyau_ »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #2

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

Wow.

I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue.

There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#45

Post by slowmovintarget »

quesera wrote: post #41
elihu wrote: post #33

This seems like the most controversial bit here: > There’s a strange contradiction revealed by the naïveté and kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe: On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial…

I can think of a few simple (maybe simplistic) reasons for the dichotomy: * We imagine theoretical "people"/beings to be good, but are confronted with the complicated reality of our neighbors. Non-human entities remain strictly theoretical, untainted by the same reality. * We see spacefaring beings as advanced beyond ourselves, and aspirationally believe that goodness accrues with advancement. Or at the very least, t…

Christianity has been fairly responsive to modern reforms. Logic notwithstanding, you sweep a hand and say "God created them too, they are siblings from another star."

Granted, that'd be a really hard sell for most mainstream branches of any religion.

But, to your point, you said some major religion, and there are already some major religions that declare Christians to be OK to kill.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#46

Post by aaomidi »

_henrywu wrote: post #21
boulos wrote: post #16

If there's anyone out there that has read the trilogy in both the original Mandarin as well as the English translations, I'd love to get their take on the effect of translation. If I remember correctly, I found The Three Body Problem super pleasant to read and engaging. By contrast, I liked the idea of Dark Forest but found it almost painful to read. The chapters were strangely broken up (some extremely long, etc.) a…

I had the same experience just a few minutes in to Dark Forest. I immediately googled to see if anyone else was struggling with the translation or if it was just me. I found many passages difficult to get through, and I'd constantly realise I'd read an entire page without taking anything in. Book 3 and 4 where both much easier to read, and they were both translated by Ken Liu. (Haven't read the mandarin versions thou…

Coming off of the Area X trilogy, this book actually seemed much more understandable. Dozens of pages passed in some of the Area X books where nothing really happened.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#47

Post by logicchains »

Elaine-H wrote: post #42
boulos wrote: post #16

If there's anyone out there that has read the trilogy in both the original Mandarin as well as the English translations, I'd love to get their take on the effect of translation. If I remember correctly, I found The Three Body Problem super pleasant to read and engaging. By contrast, I liked the idea of Dark Forest but found it almost painful to read. The chapters were strangely broken up (some extremely long, etc.) a…

I read the trilogy in Chinese but only the first book in English. The original Dark Forest is perfectly fine. Many people suggested it has the best storytelling among the three. 1. Ken Liu is generally considered (by people who have read the trilogy in both languages) a better translator 2. the Dark Forest's structure does feel a little "literary" to me, which might make you felt "the chapters were strangely broken u…

Shows the western world has really gone to shit when even an author from mainland China finds its thought policing exhausting. Phillip K. Dick would be rolling in his grave.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#48

Post by roca »

Udik wrote: post #30
newen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m just trying to explain the dynamics of typical HN comments regarding Chinese citizens, where the usually American commenter writes under the assumption that the Chinese citizen is held under this brutal dictatorship and must use any and all opportunity to speak up and/or oppose this brutal dictatorship. It’s a relatively recent phenomenon in American politics and it’s interesting to think about.

What's even more interesting is that, despite being a recent phenomenon, everybody seems convinced it's absolutely normal to think in these terms. And yet I am sure than only four or five years ago people were talking about China in an entirely different way.

Five years ago it was easy to believe that China was on a trajectory of increasing freedom. Then Xi's change in direction really took hold: the abuse of the Uighurs happened and became known, religious persecution increased, democracy was ended in Hong Kong, Xi made himself dictator for life, etc. It is entirely reasonable for people to talk about China in a different way now.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#49

Post by roca »

Udik wrote: post #28
actuator wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be most actually, just the ability to let out what even few are thinking. Look at what's happening in India. An elected government on a clear majority, passed new laws and some section of people which are not happy with it, have held the government to ransom through protests. There seems to be international civil society support for the protests as it seems like the powerless going against an all p…

I agree on the principle: being able to openly protest is better than not. Once this has been said, there is a big difference between a tyrannical government that keeps people in poverty and an authoritarian one that has brought many hundreds of millions to a western standard of life and made the country a credible competitor to the only other world super-power. I perfectly understand a Chinese being proud of their c…

It is good to be proud of China's economic achievements. It is not good to be proud of totalitarianism, the genocide of the Uighurs, religious persecution, etc.

Re: Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for “The Three Body Problem”

#50

Post by free_rms »

kbenson wrote: post #36
free_rms wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will be different default stances on international politics, but the books did not read as jingoistic to me.

> I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? That always seemed like a trite argument of those who want to justify their own behavior, and is a cop out in a story. The point of survival is that values change, and can return, but survival is absolute. You fight until there is no other option,…

I don't know if you read the books but there are some pretty severe consequences.
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