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The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

nytimes.com

131–140 of 160 posts

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with and lived around both poor and relatively rich people, but I can't say that the rich stand out as lacking empathy or compassion specifically. From my experience I would say the opposite is true, creating "anti network-effects" for many poor people. There seems to be growing resentment of "the rich" recently, but I believe that's misplaced. Things will get worse for "the poor" until the cause is diagn…

Judge people by their overall actions. The top richest Americans have sucked out all the extra value created in society for the last two generations, while offloading a great deal of risk onto individuals, who are the least likely to be able to bear it. Overall, we are in the process of destroying our ecosystem, and again, the richest people on the planet consume and waste literally _orders of magnitude_ more than th…

Well, if you want to resent rich people for being rich, that's your prerogative, but I don't think there's much benefit in seeing it that way.

You mentioned planet ecosystem and consumption, so let's use energy as an example. The richest people consume much more per capita than everyone else, but still represent a tiny fraction of overall usage. So no matter how you deal with the rich, it won't solve that problem. Meanwhile, everyone acts in their own self-interest, so you have developing nations increasing their per capita energy consumption as their standard of living increases, and overall energy use goes up. The planet doesn't know the difference in who used to energy and whether it was justified/deserving/whatever. The result is the same.

So what's the solution? You could decrease wasteful consumption (commuting, global shipping as labor arbitrage) and you can change how energy is generated (i.e. renewables), which you could lump into political and technological changes. The easiest way to do either is to align people's incentives so they'll naturally drive those changes, since again people act in their own self-interest. Some rich people will lose out in that transition and try to oppose changes, others will benefit and try to further them, but the net effect isn't necessarily negative. And of course energy use is just one example here.

So these problems are kind of orthogonal to how you feel about rich people, meaning that if you let yourself get distracted with that, you'll have little impact.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#132
post #40

> Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings How is that even legal? Let alone technically possible? How does construction of these monsters work? "Yo, Bert, I need some 5x5 high-elastic steel framing for the 72th floor!" "Sorry man, we ran out of that when we 'redesigned' the elevator shaft, how about you take thi…

> How is that even legal? It's not legal. I work in an industry that monitors such things and recommends Banks/Lenders not pay if/when these discrepancies arise (Construction Risk Management). The appropriate party will make revisions and then prove that that change won't affect the overall project. > Let alone technically possible? On larger projects, Subcontractors of Subcontractors of Subcontractors can become laz…

I wonder if it would help avoid some of these issues if all materials used in the building by all the different contractors and subcontractors and subsubcontractors etc were required to come through a single entity?

That wouldn't help with someone getting the dimensions wrong on a staircase, but it could catch things like a contractor wanting to use the wrong kind of pipe of floor material or appliance.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#133
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to get even better when the concrete starts spalling off in 40 years of swaying in the wind.

Do they use concrete in those towers or is it all steel?

All of the new thin supertall residential towers in NYC are reinforced concrete. It is incredibly stupid to allow such construction methods.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting. from the article > making clear that even multimillion-dollar price tags do not guarantee problem-free living this reiterates that you can make a living simply catering to wealthy people's problems instead of dismissing them pick and choose your battles

You can make a living in organized crime. You can make a living polluting the environment. You can make a living defending corruption, helping the rich grow richer and the poor grow poorer. The problems of the wealthy are as the problems of a tick sucking the lifeblood from a host. Rest assured that extending them empathy and compassion will be a strictly one-sided arrangement when push comes to shove.

okay. whatever particular wealthy that you are thinking about is not all or likely not most.

I would also like to point out that everyone's anecdotes about "their wealthy friends not tipping or dropping change to beggars" are not the same people you are thinking about.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#135
post #8

Noise is what turns me off from high rise residential buildings. When you watch the construction, many don’t event have concrete walls between apartments on the same floor, and I am ready to guess the concrete floors are as thin as required to keep the weight of the structure down. Add to that all-glass external walls, and I only heard stories from friends who live there that you hear everything your neighbours do, p…

Call me crazy but when I rent a condo, I try google street maps and go back in history and if I am lucky I get to see the construction phase. That will give an idea about how thick the concrete and the overall structure is. Another way is to look at the balconies. The floor will be as thick as balconies. The walls are a hit or miss. But if you knock on them and press your ears you can get some idea. Apartments near t…

This sounds like utter nonsense.

I've lived in several high rises here in NYC and 99% of the difference in the quiet ones is not stuff that you'd see from street view.

Things like sound deadening underlayment and wall insulation, floorplans designed so that quieter rooms like a bedroom aren't next to louder ones like a living room.

I know HN is full of experts and their field but this is a stretch past stretches. No idea what kind if Rain Man engineer could tell you how quiet an apartment will be from street views.

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The way you tell if a place is quiet is the reviews mostly. People like privacy, one of the easiest complaints to find is "feel like I hear everything my neighbors do"

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#136

I don't understand how anyone would want to live in a high rise. Rational or not, if feels dangerous to live high up in a narrow bottlenecked artificial construct.

I feel the same way. A fire in a building like that would be inescapable.

We had a fire about 10 floors above me in a 60 story building. Never even got an alarm for it.

Modern building practices mean that it's not that easy for a fire to spread, and evacuating the entire building is a last resort.

Every apartment has fire rated doors with a spring forcing them closed (so even if you leave in a panic the door will close behind you)

The interior doors also seem pretty heavy to me, they don't have a fire rating placard but I wouldn't be surprised if they were picked with fire resistance in mind.

I'm lowest worry is fire, highest is easily elevators.

One day at my last building I hears a very loud crashing sound, look in the hallway and FDNY was cutting a hole in a wall to access a stuck elevator on a separate elevator bank...

On one hand, the fact the failed elevator stopped is good, on the other whoever was inside probably had a truly awful time. M

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#138
mankind is still foolishly building towers that are taller and taller.

USEABELE volume , not height , is what will determine which civilizations win the competitive struggle for existence over the next few thousand years.

We haven't even begun to build our first true megastructures yet. and we are still probably 30-60 years away from sufficient technological convergence to make them functionally competitive with modern mega-cities like new york or hong kong.

thing about that though, in 30-40 years we may have the technology to begin seriously designing a form of city that will make ALL other past cities, not merely obsolete, but quickly anachronistic.

in 300-400 years from now , it is quite likely none of the major cities of our current world exist as 'dominant cities'. , at least in any recognizeable form. if at all.NONE of them.

why? technological convergence of simulated reality with ever increasing methods of both engineering marvels, combined with software accounting systems that measure monitor and predict human suffering/pleasure as a function of living in a mega city for sustainable periods of time.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#139
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that the rich are above-average in lacking empathy or compassion. Though there does seem to be a correlation between wealth and ruthlessness, which isn't exactly the same thing. However, when we see bad behavior from the rich, like the Koch brothers, their wealth amplifies the bad behavior and it seems to have an outsized effect upon the world.

>correlation between wealth and ruthlessness Any numbers to support this? Or you just believe so?

How many billionaires can I name that fit the label "ruthless"? How many are there that don't?

Maybe not Gates, but Steve Ballmer. Larry fricken' Ellison. Terry and TC Gou. Koch Brothers. Musk & Bezos. The list goes on and on.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. The very old buildings in Montreal are soundproof. But the new “optimized” condos coming up have thin concrete floors(the bare minimum code) and the common walls are also soundproofed to the bare minimum code I think STC 50 if I remember.

Concrete floors with multiple thin layers of foam embedded in the concrete end up stronger and lighter than concrete without foam, and are way better at sound insulation. The downside is it's logistically harder to arrange everything in the mould. When someone figures out a process to do it without so much labor, it'll become standard practice, because it'll save concrete and weight.

Can’t know this by looking at it from the outside. A renter or even a buyer gets so little time to analyze what’s underneath the flooring or inside the common walls. I do not know if one can request the materials and blueprint of a condo before buying it.
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