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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#591

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This is such a silly subject, I wonder what I said in the above comment that started this. I can just as easily say that it is completely impossible to recreate the experience of chocolate brownie with meat. But that is not the point. I bet you only love seared medium rare centercut piece of beef tenderloin because you have learned to appreciate it. I on the other hand haven’t. The mere thought of eating beef gives b…

> I wonder what I said in the above comment that started this. You don't like meat, eating meat disgusts you, you don't understand how people can like meat, and yet you butted into this discussion with your completely unfounded opinion on whether or not other people actually like meat or not. You also seem to think that people liking cooked meat somehow means they actually don't like meat, as if liking raw meat is th…

To get back on track here:

I am trying to debunk the idea that “[p]eople eat meat because they like the taste and the texture” which you commented after a parent said that “calling plant-based things "meat" [is] a terrible idea”. To quite:

> We can have all kinds of flavors for these products, instead of "meat" flavor, not having to "live up to" the meat taste, and mouth feel. We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.

You started this debate by stating as a matter of fact that people “like the taste and the texture [of meat]”. I am trying—albeit really poorly—to say that that simply isn’t true. My choice of attack was perhaps poor, since I cannot seem to get my point across, but I chose to use that fact the people alter the both the taste and texture of meat a lot before they consume it. And for some reason people seem to think what I mean here is that they shouldn’t. As if I’m trying to invoke a No True Scotsman in favor raw meat.

> If you don't eat meat or don't like meat, then Beyond Meat and Impossible Burger are not products for you!

Sure, they are not. But I really doubt that the people who these are for like it because of the meat part. I honestly don’t know why they like it (I bet there are a million reasons), but I doubt that more than a few of these is because it reminds of meat actually. Because—as I’m trying (poorly) to convey—there is nothing inherent about the meat part they like.

I won’t be eating the Beyond or Impossible products because, honestly, they suck compared to the alternatives. Although I haven’t found anything that comes close to a good Oumph! here in America (if this is this how a meat eater feels when they can’t access meat, then I honestly don’t see the big deal here, just eat something else).

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#592

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I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage…

Many people hate surf and turf. How about we don't start a pointless discussion about individual foods when there are endless variations at all levels of preparation complexity both with and without meat?

because there isn't an unlimited combination, and despite the faux-vegan outcry you all know your options are pretty terrible as most people don't last on the diet at all.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#593

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You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

That is due to extreme levels of inequality in the US and one of the stingiest welfare systems in the whole developed world. It is not due to food prices. If that was the deciding factor then Norwegians and Japanese would be starving.

A lot of the low food prices in the US also contribute to this poverty. The low prices come at the back of people in the food industry doing long days for shitty pay. If the “solution” to people not getting food on the table was to keep pushing food prices down then one easily end up in a situation arguing against minimum wage and workers rights.

One has to look at the whole system and not just a tiny sliver of it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general? So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged. That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

If you remove subsidies you got more money to spare for other things. As a general rule, and policy affecting consumer prices should look at its effect on consumers and combine such changes with other measures.

Money saved one place can be spent other places. Instead of spending it on more tax breaks for the rich it could be spent on the poor providing a net gain for them.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general? So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged. That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

Thank you for pointing this out. The moment I see any mention of price increase to curb spending is probably as naive as it is dangerous.

It is not naive. What is naive is to leave to market to its own devices and assume everything will work themselves out beautifully.

You always make a proper analysis and do multiple changes money earned on price increases on one category of foods could be spent to reduce another category of food.

You could e.g. tax sugar and junk food and use those earning to subsidize healthier foods , making healthier food more accessible to poor people.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Tariffs are a much worse idea than direct subsidies to farmers. If you want people to buy American garlic, pay US farmers to sell it for cheaper than the Chinese garlic. A tariff is a regressive tax that makes life harder for the poor.

Where do you think money for subsidies come from?

Money has to come from taxes or cuts somewhere else. Likewise a tariff gives money which could be spent elsewhere.

Hence a tariff one place could be used to create tax cuts or provide other benefits in another area.

In this case what matters is if you actually have a government which is trying to look out for the poor.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#597
post #441

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There is no evidence that saturated fat inhibits athletic performance. Vegan bodybuilders are a small fraction of the total, and that's just one sport. What percentage of elite athletes across all sports are vegan?

The overall portion of athletes are vegetarian or vegan is low, but the ones who are can still perform very well. This suggests that the difference is based, at least in part, on preference.

There have also been many athletes who tried vegan diets and found that their performance declined, or they had more difficulty recovering from injuries. So preference is only one factor.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#598

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It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.

That’s what’s so gross about it. We take a governance problem (bad practices in meat and dairy industry), hijack fringe movements like veganism, and turn it into way to undermine sustainable agriculture. The MBAs running big companies don’t care if burgers are from beef or ground up sawdust. It’s just cash. Along the way, we’re tricking people into thinking that some palm oil smoothie is healthier than meat, and that…

The worst thing is that consumers fall for it, every single time.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#599

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> weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger: Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12. The only…

Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something…

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#600

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Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Do you have any links to sources or further reading material regarding this current state of affairs? It seems not entirely obvious, nor easily checked for a casual reader. (Maybe that's part of the issue of why this is not a more popular topic yet.)

Kind of a tangent but Michael Pollan's books always open my eyes about these topics. In particular for this subject https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omnivore%27s_Dilemma gives a good overview of why fast food (and all highly processed food) are so much cheaper than eating whole food. In the process you start to understand the role corn has on it and why it's the biggest crop of grain in the world.
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