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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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601–610 of 679 posts

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#601

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While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general? So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged. That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

If you remove subsidies you got more money to spare for other things. As a general rule, and policy affecting consumer prices should look at its effect on consumers and combine such changes with other measures.

Money saved one place can be spent other places. Instead of spending it on more tax breaks for the rich it could be spent on the poor providing a net gain for them.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general? So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged. That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

Thank you for pointing this out. The moment I see any mention of price increase to curb spending is probably as naive as it is dangerous.

It is not naive. What is naive is to leave to market to its own devices and assume everything will work themselves out beautifully.

You always make a proper analysis and do multiple changes money earned on price increases on one category of foods could be spent to reduce another category of food.

You could e.g. tax sugar and junk food and use those earning to subsidize healthier foods , making healthier food more accessible to poor people.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Tariffs are a much worse idea than direct subsidies to farmers. If you want people to buy American garlic, pay US farmers to sell it for cheaper than the Chinese garlic. A tariff is a regressive tax that makes life harder for the poor.

Where do you think money for subsidies come from?

Money has to come from taxes or cuts somewhere else. Likewise a tariff gives money which could be spent elsewhere.

Hence a tariff one place could be used to create tax cuts or provide other benefits in another area.

In this case what matters is if you actually have a government which is trying to look out for the poor.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#604
post #441

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There is no evidence that saturated fat inhibits athletic performance. Vegan bodybuilders are a small fraction of the total, and that's just one sport. What percentage of elite athletes across all sports are vegan?

The overall portion of athletes are vegetarian or vegan is low, but the ones who are can still perform very well. This suggests that the difference is based, at least in part, on preference.

There have also been many athletes who tried vegan diets and found that their performance declined, or they had more difficulty recovering from injuries. So preference is only one factor.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#605

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It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.

That’s what’s so gross about it. We take a governance problem (bad practices in meat and dairy industry), hijack fringe movements like veganism, and turn it into way to undermine sustainable agriculture. The MBAs running big companies don’t care if burgers are from beef or ground up sawdust. It’s just cash. Along the way, we’re tricking people into thinking that some palm oil smoothie is healthier than meat, and that…

The worst thing is that consumers fall for it, every single time.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#606

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> weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger: Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12. The only…

Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something…

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#607

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Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Do you have any links to sources or further reading material regarding this current state of affairs? It seems not entirely obvious, nor easily checked for a casual reader. (Maybe that's part of the issue of why this is not a more popular topic yet.)

Kind of a tangent but Michael Pollan's books always open my eyes about these topics. In particular for this subject https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omnivore%27s_Dilemma gives a good overview of why fast food (and all highly processed food) are so much cheaper than eating whole food. In the process you start to understand the role corn has on it and why it's the biggest crop of grain in the world.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#608
post #593

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Since when was eating meat in almost every meal in the human nature ? AFAIK this level of meat eating is limited a minority population in a very short period of the history of our species. What you say might be true of the wolf nature—hence you shouldn’t feed your dog with vegetarian diet. But humans are not dogs, and only insular population of us living in harsh climates such as the arctic have historically eaten me…

>Since when was eating meat in almost every meal in the human nature? All the nomadic tribes, people living in mountainous areas, hunter gatherer societies in temperate climates,... Though the question itself is pretty meaningless or misleading, since on average people today do not eat meat in almost every meal at all.

Like I said “only insular population of us living in harsh climates”.

I doubt that hunter gatherers in temperate climate ate 100 kg of meat per year. This kind of meat consumption only existed were plant based diet wasn’t available at all. To contextualize, 100 kg (average yearly USA meat consumption per person) is around 2 kg per week, that is around 150 grams per meal (given 14 meals per week). I would say that qualifies as meat in almost every meal.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#609

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That's certainly an interpretation of that study. Here's another one. > Almost half of parents (45.2%) claim that their pediatrician was unable to provide sufficient information and adequate indications regarding unconventional weaning and 77.4% of parents reported the pediatrician’s resistance towards alternative weaning methods. > Our results show that alternative weaning methods are followed by a significant numbe…

>> In other words, nearly half of parents who try vegetarian weaning report that their pediatricians stop helping them or are unable to give them adequate/informed nutritional advice, and unsurprisingly, parents who no longer have adequate access to health resources and information struggle to raise healthy kids. I think your "other words" are deviating very significantly from the letter of the article and you're add…

You have to be pretty selective in this article to look at one word, "perceived", and conclude that the issue here is that people aren't trusting their pediatricians. If the paper meant to say that that vegetarian weaning was a snake oil treatment, it would have said that a lot more directly.

Instead, it literally says: "Vegetarian weaning with appropriate guidance from family pediatricians or nutritional experts is possible and it should not be opposed."

If the paper meant to say that pediatricians were fully up-to-date on how to give advice, and the problem was that nobody was listening to them, then it would have said that a lot more directly. Instead, it literally says: "Efforts should be made to enhance nutritional understanding among pediatricians as an unsupervised vegetarian or vegan diet can cause severe nutritional deficiencies with possible detrimental long-term effects."

I don't think a full reading of the entire paper supports the conclusion that pediatricians are perfectly informed and that vegetarian weaning is a snake oil con. It supports the conclusion that research is underdeveloped and that many pediatricians are not qualified to guide parents through that process. It does discourage vegan weaning because it's difficult to do correctly, because it can go very wrong if not done correctly, because we're still getting research about the best ways to handle those diets, and because, again, pediatricians and health experts have not studied these diets enough to be confident giving advice about them. This is not necessarily the same thing as saying that vegan weaning is impossible to do well -- it's acknowledging that we live in a world where it hasn't been scientifically studied enough to know the potential downsides, and where guiding resources are extremely scarce.

I think you're projecting a conclusion onto this that the authors explicitly reject. A paper that was trying to warn about the troubling trend of parents rejecting their pediatricians' advice would not look like this. It would be talking about things like combating disinformation, it wouldn't be spending half the paper talking about the best B12/iron/etc vegetarian food sources.

But it never goes to topics like misinformation. Instead, it lays out nutritional advice, warns against unsupervised weaning and the risk of naively eliminating meat, and then ends by reinforcing again the need for proper professional guidance: "alternative weaning as a self-decision should be generally discouraged. Pediatricians should guide families strongly willing to follow a vegetarian/vegan regimen, providing all nutritional requirements."

That doesn't line up with the narrative you have about this paper. Nowhere does it say, "pediatricians should figure out how to convince families strongly willing to follow a vegetarian/vegan regimen that they're being scammed/deluded."

> There are plenty of articles in the mainstream press by doctors who lament the fact that their patients will trust charlatans who sell them energy therapies and other such snake oil treatments, instead of the doctors themselves.

I'm sure there are. It's just, this paper isn't one of them and shouldn't be lumped into that category. If you're writing about energy therapies, you don't spend half the paper describing how to do energy therapy well and how we need more resources to guide parents through energy therapy, because it's not a real thing that can be done well.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Many are elected as MPs and then appointed ministers, but this is typically not a requirement, and you can easily have unelected ministers. OK, I don't know that. Is that the case in EU countries? If so, which ones? Anyway I didn't say that ministers are elected as ministers, but to my knowledge for someone to be appointed a minister they must be elected into parliament. Again, if that's not the case please explai…

> Anyway I didn't say that ministers are elected as ministers, but to my knowledge for someone to be appointed a minister they must be elected into parliament. That might be the case in certain countries, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_Kingdom says: "In the United Kingdom's parliamentary system, the executive is not separate from the legislature, since Cabinet members are drawn from…

Are you sure this is the case, about the Austrian Independents? It's not very clear from the wikipedia articles on the persons and on the institutions.

In any case, it looks like the Austrian ministers are figurheads without real political power, or so I gather from the relevant artice on wikipedia:

Austrian presidents gladly accept that their role is that of figureheads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Austria

But I may not be reading all this carefully enough. Still, this seems to be something ... peculiar to Austria?

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