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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#551

Post by thejynxed »

bushbaba wrote: post #468
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

We import those products like garlic and broccoli from China as part of a trade deal where they import corn and other grains even though they can and do produce their own. They have many more mouths to feed, so on their end, getting all of this extra grain in exchange for shipping over a select variety of vegetables and fish is a net plus to them, and to us, it provides an established return on government provided grain subsidies that allow them to issue more grain subsidies.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#552

Post by thejynxed »

JCharante wrote: post #527
VBprogrammer wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

> While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? So let's funnel that 25% import tarif or money we save from not subsidizing the meat industry into the federal food stamps program.

You're missing the part where those government subsidies are being issued to growers who provide products certified for the SNAP and WIC programs. You remove the subsidies and mess with the tariffs too much and now you're into a whole other problem of growers now refusing to participate in either program.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#553

Post by netrus »

Grustaf wrote: post #518
runarberg wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think parent was ever saying that tofu was (nor should) be similar to meat in taste nor texture. That is not the point. You can still prepare and spice tofu just like you would do with meat, and get a complete meal that replaces meat with something else that adds to the quality of the meal just like meat would, regardless of whether the substitute replicates the texture or taste at all.

That is much closer to my standpoint then. I think it’s silly to imitate meat, when there are plenty of delicious vegetarian dishes. For example tofu dishes.

How is that different from saying: "It's silly to eat Indian food [prepared by Americans] when there are plenty delicious American dishes"? No one is forced to eat fake meat, but as vegetarian who likes burgers, how am I silly for eating fake meat burgers? I also eat tofu, vegetables, Indian, Italian, and Vietnamese food, and I think variety is a nice thing to have. Silly me.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#554

Post by socialdemocrat »

What would the price of meat be if producers had to pay for the impact on nature and actually care about animal welfare?

I admit I love meat but I am increasingly trying out plant based alternatives and I must say that I am increasingly impressed by what I taste. Availability is a problem for me. Most stores don’t have all these new products.

It is also one of the downsides and benefits of living inside the Norwegian agricultural bubble. We rely a lot on our own products which is limits variation given how small the Norwegian market is. On the positive side it means better animal welfare and meat safety. When you don’t directly compete with foreign meat producers government is not pressured to lower standards to be competitive.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#555

Post by thejynxed »

asdff wrote: post #440
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

Some of the subsidies are entrenched and strongly lobbied. There is no reason at all to be wasting water on almonds or cotton in California, for an example.

The farming industry in California would be non-existent without constant subsidizing both of the crops and the extraordinarily wasteful and expensive importing of water from numerous other states to prevent the farmland that was originally desert from reverting back to it's natural state.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#556

Post by lordgrenville »

bushbaba wrote: post #468
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Tariffs are a much worse idea than direct subsidies to farmers. If you want people to buy American garlic, pay US farmers to sell it for cheaper than the Chinese garlic. A tariff is a regressive tax that makes life harder for the poor.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#557

Post by thejynxed »

adrianN wrote: post #463
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

Meat subsidies in Germany are so successful at helping farmers compete with low cost countries that Germany is one of the biggest exporters of pork.

To be fair, Germany provides some really high-quality pork products to the world market in exchange for those subsidies.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#558

Post by b112 »

imhoguy wrote: post #501
hombre_fatal wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to suggest that you think our meat comes from animals who kinda exist and compete mutually with crops when actually we feed most of our crops to animals. If there was an ecological disaster that killed crop production, we wouldn't waste it by feeding it to animals for a grossly inefficient luxury item. It's like when people try to make a "pro-meat" claim by pointing out how much water it takes to grow a po…

Most animals can feed on wild grasses which we can't digest. They can serve us with a lot of resources and stay alive too (milk, wool, eggs). But if the event is so severe that even grass is gone, then rats are left and canibalism.

A good point.

Also:

https://www.covercropstrategies.com/articles/1368-adding-hay...

There's also strong logic in having hay as part of crop rotation, which as we know, is vital to reduce the need for fertilizer.

On top of this, there's loads of land useless for anything other than grazing. Too dry, with no irrigation (only usable for grazing in the spring). Too rocky, too much of a slope, soil quality not right (too much clay, etc, etc), yet still able to support grasses.

There's a lot of grazing done, in and outside of the US.

Lastly, and this was mentioned GP, it's vital to produce more than we eat each year. Extremely vital. Part of all the subsidies we have, is to ensure farmers DO grow more than required.

To ensure that the free market, doesn't bottom out pricing too much, because we have farmers over producing. If you want to start removing subsidies, then you should first ensure people have a year's worth of canned emergency food on hand.

If people get hungry, that's where the knives come out. If your kid is hungry, you're going to feed it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#559

Post by thejynxed »

jamil7 wrote: post #477
Aerroon wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they'll replace their meat with what? More sugar? Bread? Sugary bread? I think you underestimate how big of a deal food is to people. I believe that any change will be towards food that's even worse for people.

Why would people replace meat with sugar?

Because of how much of it is added into every alternative meat replacement product, and it's a shockingly high amount if you read the labels on some "organic" and "plant-based" products.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#560

Post by refurb »

bushbaba wrote: post #468
ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Because we’ve tried import tariffs before and they don’t work well?
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