How to lower the price of plant-based meat • Hacker News Board

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#391

Post by hombre_fatal » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:36 AM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #123

wyre wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would love to see subsidies ended on animal products, it couldn’t happen overnight without huge backlash. Lowering the subsidies over time and eliminating the power that the animal agriculture industry has over politics would do a lot to increase the number of plant-based eaters.

You get rid of subsidies and then poor people can’t eat meat. Good luck dealing with the political fallout from that. Subsidized meat is a special kind of a American socialism where the wealthy tax payers fund the subsidies so everyone else can eat meat. Honestly, so many of the ideas for addressing climate just prevent poor people from participating. The upper middle class who are most concerned with these issues (a…

What's wrong with poor people being unable to afford a luxury item based on animal exploitation and suffering?

Usually people respond to this pointing out some supposed nutrition advantages of meat as if the USA, with the cheapest meat in the world, is somehow the paragon of health and cuisine. Though I'd be down for a government sponsored, optional multivitamin.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#392

Post by drivingmenuts » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #228

drivingmenuts wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for lying about it being meat. That definition should be reserved for animal-based protein.

I don't get this at all. Why? So long as it's labeled appropriately (ingredients, possibly some disclaimer if required but I think that would be absurd) why not call it whatever we want? Meat is already a somewhat ambiguous term in English, so giving it legal protection seems odd to me. Personally I think we shouldn't sell juice that's from concentrate as 100% juice, but I can easily find out by reading the ingredien…

Juice from concentrate is still the juice of its original source - no one is taking the juice of an orange and calling it apple juice. The water has been removed somewhat for ease of storage and packaging and probably also as a side-effect of pasteurization.

While we do informally refer to the edible portion of certain vegetables as meat, that is absolutely not the same thing as meat from animal sources and I doubt there are few who would confuse that in an informal setting.

But do the plant-based meat replacements contain enough material from those same “meaty” vegetable sources to justify calling them meat more formally in the same manner that we would call animal protein meat?

Given that food is one of the things we have to have to survive, along with air and water, it seems disingenuous to argue that manufacturers and marketers should be able to so blatantly lie about the source materials of that food. Using a formal term, other than meat, would help to reduce confusion about the source material and set it apart from animal proteins, allowing the consumer to make a more informed choice.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#393

Post by foerbert » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #164

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

I think you and OP are talking about different things.

For most products, and virtually all that aren't particularly modern, they suffer from being set up as direct replacements for meat. Take fake deli meats, for example. There are options that make a good sandwich. But they don't make a good $specific-meat sandwich. If they found a way to position themselves more in the vein of ham vs turkey vs plant-based sandwich they would do far, far better. Instead they position themselves as fake-ham or something, and then some unsuspecting person trying out plant-based alternatives goes in expecting a ham sandwich and ends up with their expectations rather violated. People don't like that, particularly with food. But they went in just expecting some kind of sandwich, I think they very well might enjoy it.

I've been vegetarian-tending-towards-vegan for over a decade and I still occasionally fall into that trap if I'm not careful.

Products like Impossible are the exception. They are so notable because they are getting into the realm where a direct comparison with meat actually works in their favor. I think that's great. I think you are right that this is the key for convincing many people to move away from meat. It's so much easier to market something as another version of meat, rather than a whole new thing. But I also think it's worth keeping in mind that they are exceptional products, and what works for them may not be the best for others.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#394

Post by runarberg » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #164

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture

AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well.

With plant based food you have all these options and more.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#395

Post by lhorie » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

singhrac wrote: post #386

lhorie wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's definitely a gradient in terms of how "meat"-like veggie patties can be. What I take issue with is that instead of offering products for what they are and letting people build their culture around them, it feels like the food industry is essentially operating in tunnel-vision mode and perpetuating what IMHO is a pretty mediocre culinary culture. So while you may get spicy veggie cake hotpots elsewhere…

I sympathize with your viewpoint, having experienced McDonald's in India. My guess is that it doesn't pay to experiment and build a food culture - all the big companies can do is wait for a local success and then try to import it. Food tastes vary a lot from person and place, so I do think it's very risky. To give you a successful example, poke bowls became popular in the urban US in the early 2010s, and reached my c…

Yeah, the point about local tastes is very true. But consider delivery food: pizza and chinese are both very popular in the US, not because they're authentic or even good, but because some companies figured out a way to market themselves effectively. So, while tastes might not change overnight, it's certainly possible to create culture w/ clever marketing and pricing. That might potentially be a better bet for a food industry upstart than trying to negotiate w/ big chains and end up getting shut out because "economies of scale didn't pan out".

Even without creating culture, I think there are food items that big food companies could conceivably offer in a market like the US and still be relatively well accepted: chicken pot pie, pastas/lasagnas, crepes, fish and chips, are all things that americans are warm to and don't necessarily involve a huge slab of red meat as the core of the dish. One of those can even be made in a McD restaurant with existing ingredients today.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#396

Post by Dylan16807 » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

f430 wrote: post #388

Dylan16807 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their whole goal is to enmesh it at a cultural level so that they can increase sales, not really concerned about the real problem which is cruelty, indifference to the treatment of animals by the bovine industrial complex. The product solves animal cruelty and lots of the customers buy it for that reason, so why should I care very much that the company itself is amoral? > It's even more dangerous now because of the…

> The product solves animal cruelty explain. > why should I care very much that the company itself is amoral? do you realize the paradox of this sentence?

> explain.

There is no animal cruelty in its production, so that solves the problem of "making this kind of thing is cruel to animals".

To be more specific, I mean the whole scenario of people buying it "as meat" removes all animal cruelty from their meat-motivated food purchases. Not that the product will stop people from kicking puppies somehow.

> do you realize the paradox of this sentence?

No, what is it? I said "amoral", not "immoral", and I said "very much".

It's a little worrying that companies are amoral, but that applies to every company ever. If a company is doing a good thing, then I give it a thumbs up.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#397

Post by jfim » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #394

henrikschroder wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well. With p…

> AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it.

If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else.

Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat.

> But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste.

That's just like saying "if people liked the taste of vegetables they wouldn't put salt or pepper on them."

Most people wouldn't eat plain tofu either, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, just means that it needs to be prepared as part of a dish, just like any other ingredient.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#398

Post by mikepurvis » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 3:03 AM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #203

henrikschroder wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of produ…

There's totally a place for both. If your plant-based product is trying directly to ape meat, then yeah definitely call it meat.

I for one eat a mix of real meat, plant-based meat, and non-meat protein options— tofu stirfry, falafel burger, etc.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#399

Post by runarberg » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 3:03 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #330

aylmao wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but as someone who is not vegetarian/vegan and is from a country with a cuisine that revolves heavily around meat (Mexican) I have to agree with OP. > If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry). I think one thing is making sure it's grea…

> Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability. Maybe, but solutions that go against human nature are doomed to fail in the first place. Asceticism doesn't work. Asking people to do the right thing only has a tiny marginal effect. The only solution to get long-term sustainability is to offer people a better, greener, more sustainable alternative, t…

Since when was eating meat in almost every meal in the human nature? AFAIK this level of meat eating is limited a minority population in a very short period of the history of our species.

What you say might be true of the wolf nature—hence you shouldn’t feed your dog with vegetarian diet. But humans are not dogs, and only insular population of us living in harsh climates such as the arctic have historically eaten meat as our primary diet. And even then, plant based food is brought to these populations, people there very much consume it. If there is any human nature that rules our eating habits it is the fact that we are omnivores and eat what is available.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#400

Post by runarberg » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #259

jayphen wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tofu and wheat gluten have been used for centuries as meat analogues in many cultures (especially those that mostly eat vegetarian). It’s not a silly concept at all, and opens up a world of delicious culinary options to those of us who don’t eat animal flesh.

Tofu is nothing like meat in neither taste nor texture, and I’m pretty sure it has never been seen as a meat substitute traditionally.

I don’t think parent was ever saying that tofu was (nor should) be similar to meat in taste nor texture. That is not the point.

You can still prepare and spice tofu just like you would do with meat, and get a complete meal that replaces meat with something else that adds to the quality of the meal just like meat would, regardless of whether the substitute replicates the texture or taste at all.