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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#461

Post by esperent »

snakeboy wrote: post #301
henrikschroder wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.

Ethics aside, I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. That being said, I think it's only fair to compare that to all the antibiotics, hormones, and fertilizers that your average low-grade ground beef has been exposed to or fed.

> weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger.

Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger:

Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12.

The only thing unusual is leghemoglobin, which is fermented soy protein.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#462

Post by acbabis »

nradov wrote: post #441
acbabis wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be a lot of reasons for that. I doubt the reason is that meat is the healthiest option for them; meat contains a lot of saturated fat, which athletes try to avoid too much of. It's more likely that meat is healthy enough for athletes who enjoy eating meat. This wouldn't mean they need meat, and they most certainly don't as there are a lot of successful vegan bodybuilders.

There is no evidence that saturated fat inhibits athletic performance. Vegan bodybuilders are a small fraction of the total, and that's just one sport. What percentage of elite athletes across all sports are vegan?

The overall portion of athletes are vegetarian or vegan is low, but the ones who are can still perform very well. This suggests that the difference is based, at least in part, on preference.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#463

Post by adrianN »

ascar wrote: post #354
danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

Meat subsidies in Germany are so successful at helping farmers compete with low cost countries that Germany is one of the biggest exporters of pork.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#464

Post by adrianN »

nemo44x wrote: post #135
danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Have you considered why we do this? How would our society be different if only well-to-do people could eat meat regularly? Would a regular guy be content with wealthy people eating steaks while jet-setting around the globe because of climate change? I think a populist uprising would occur almost immediately and we’d see heads on pikes with their decapitated mouths stuffed with cabbage for all to see. It would be supe…

The average US citizen eats around 100kg of meat per year. You could easily cut that in half and still eat meat every day.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#465

Post by esperent »

gherkinnn wrote: post #264
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

I agree. As a meat eater, these recreations are a joke. They can just about compete with chicken nuggets. I don’t like nuggets. So I’ve come to regard them as inedible. Same goes for vegan “cheese”. Bleurgh. And the thing is, I love falafel. There’s bound to be plenty more plant-based patty things. Veggie dishes that don’t pretend to be something they’re not are delicious. Give me baked onions, baba ghanoush, and cel…

> As a meat eater, these recreations are a joke.

Also a meat eater, and the impossible burger is great - certainly way better than many cheap meat burgers I've eaten. Not as good as a premium or homemade burger though, I agree.

However, it's early days. These products have only just started to be made in the last couple of years. It's hardly surprising they are not yet perfect.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#466

Post by adrianN »

asdff wrote: post #442
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

Vegetarian food that isn't straight up dried commodities like beans either costs a lot of money or takes a lot of time to prepare in comparison to meat, and the working poor of this country have neither.

It takes exactly the same amount of effort to make vegetarian food as it takes to make a dish with meat, cooking some lentils with vegetables and cottage cheese takes literally twenty minutes for example. And we're currently discussing why meat substitutes are expensive and how to lower the prices.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#467

Post by tomstoms »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #292
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, my understanding of the scientific consensus is that a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is perfectly possible. However the question is what happens when such a diet is forced on a large fraction of some population, either because meat becomes too expensive, or because plant-based alterantives become much cheaper. Are most people who can scarecely afford good nutritious food right now going to be able to maint…

There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Just recently, the carnivore diet has taken off for multiple people, and even just significantly reducing plant-based foods in favor of animal-based foods is showing to help many people. There's also the theor…

Our livestock is given chemically manufactured b12 supplements because the soil is being depleted of the microbiology that produces and leaves it on plant material which is the natural way to get it. So everyone, including meat eaters are consumers of b12 supplements, unless they live in regions where modern agriculture does not have a strong foothold.

Similarly, modern western foods is full of supplements via “fortification” so to say that vegan diet is unnatural because of the need for supplements is a mute argument, so long as those supplements are part of everyone’s diet, and meat is just a carrier.

My point is still that the debate over plant based diets are too simplistic and based on anecdotes (on both sides). If we spent all the tax money we now spend on meat and dairy subsidies instead on unbiased research and education on general nutrition, I am convinced a lot of people would be surprised at the outcome.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#468

Post by bushbaba »

ascar wrote: post #354
danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food.

I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing.

Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#469

Post by tomstoms »

tomstoms wrote: post #467
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Just recently, the carnivore diet has taken off for multiple people, and even just significantly reducing plant-based foods in favor of animal-based foods is showing to help many people. There's also the theor…

Our livestock is given chemically manufactured b12 supplements because the soil is being depleted of the microbiology that produces and leaves it on plant material which is the natural way to get it. So everyone, including meat eaters are consumers of b12 supplements, unless they live in regions where modern agriculture does not have a strong foothold. Similarly, modern western foods is full of supplements via “forti…

The only supplements in our household are b12 and vitamin D. B12 is a supplement in everyone’s diet in the western world already, as I have argued, and vitamin D is universally recommended supplement in the northern region anyway due to lack of sun exposure in winter. Instead of getting it through fortified milk or fish oil, we take a pill, and we feel a lot better about it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#470

Post by tengbretson »

gbear605 wrote: post #456
tengbretson wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So with your plan, if I get rid of the cows in my pasture and a bunch of deer move in to graze it instead do I still get taxed for their farts too?

Of course not. Unless you’re raising a deer herd, and claiming ownership over them, in which case sure.

When you put it that way it kind of sounds like managing the animal conversion of biomass into methane isn't the actual goal then.
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