How to lower the price of plant-based meat • Hacker News Board

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#191

Post by danShumway » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #138

dragonwriter wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get rid of subsidies and then poor people can’t eat meat So stop subsidizing meat and spend the same money augmenting the income of the poor , then poor people will be at least as able to eat meat and be at least as well off when doing so as they were with the meat sibaidies, while those who choose not to will be even better off than they were with meat subsidies.

Why would people that pay taxes prefer that model? So, I pay the same taxes and then I also get to spend a lot more on food for my family? Good luck getting support for that.

> So, I pay the same taxes and then I also get to spend a lot more on food for my family?

Well, no, not necessarily. You pay taxes right now to subsidize meat consumption across the board, to everyone, even rich people.

Under a system like UBI, you pay the same taxes, your food costs more, but you also get a check in the mail that balances out the extra food cost.

Or under a targeted system that is designed to specifically benefit the poor, you pay more for food but fewer taxes, because you're only paying taxes to subsidize the poor instead of (currently) also paying additional taxes to subsidize the meat consumption of rich people.

It's a mistake to say that your food costs less right now because you pay taxes. It costs the same, you're just paying part of the price in your taxes. And part of the 'problem' is that the money you're paying to the government is going towards subsidizing everyone, including people who are more well off than you but that get to enjoy cheap meat prices anyway. That's not necessarily a very efficient way to help the poor.

There are lots of different schemes and complications here, it's not as simple as I'm making it out to be. But the very basic idea is that it would cost less money to subsidize just the poor, and then you could keep some of your tax money that's currently subsidizing rich people and you could spend it on meat instead.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#192

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #81

dehrmann wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy I have no issues with " milk" products and labeling them like that, but people do get confused about their nutritional profiles, thinking they're substitutes for milk. They're not, and they're chemically different enough that they're not good substitutes for cooking. About the only thing they're good substitutes for is liquid milk, though I hear oa…

> but people do get confused about their nutritional profiles By that logic, should 2% milk be allowed to be called milk? What about chocolate milk? Nutritional profiles can vary wildly between different brands and products, especially when we're talking about meat -- so where do you draw the line?

Look, you're raising an interesting point but this is not about meat vs. not meat (or "what kind of meat"). For instance, I was recently made aware that about 80% of the milk sold in Greek supermarkets (I'm Greek) is UHT ("long-life"). That goes for the milk displayed in refrigerated isles. OK? Supermarkets put UHT milk in the fridge - so people will think it's fresh. Most likely it's the dairy companies that direct them to do so. Some brands even put UHT milk in clear plastic bottles, like the ones used for fresh milk. Last time I checked there were maybe three brands of pasteurised (i.e. "fresh", not long-life) milk in the refrigerated isle in the three supermarkets I visit frequently.

And yet, I remember reading (and could perhaps dig up again with a bit of effort) a study claiming that Greeks don't like to drink UHT milk and prefer fresh milk. Well, perhaps that's what they think but in practice most of the milk on sale (and so, very likely, most of what is consumed) is UHT.

Note: "fresh milk" is not raw milk; "fresh" milk means milk that's been pasteurised, but not ultra-pasteurised, and that's been knocking about the dairy industry's plants and refrigerated trucks and the like for about a week. "Fresh" is a misnomer. Even if it wasn't, people don't seem capable of distinguishing it from UHT milk anyway.

Bottom line: people don't know what they're consuming. Like, they really have no idea. Myself I hadn't noticed all that but it was pointed out to me by a friend who is a dairy scientist. In fact, I'd been drinking a UHT milk and thinking "hey, that tastes kinda sweet". I even kinda liked it. I mean, there's nothing wrong with drinking UHT milk! Don't get me wrong- it's just as nutritious as "fresh" milk. Except, I had no idea. This is disturbing. It makes me wonder- what else am I missing? What else is sold to me as one kind of food but is really something else than what I expect?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#193

Post by Falling3 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

bearbawl wrote: post #167

Falling3 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm not following what you were trying to do there. Are you trying to bring this back around to human population growth?

Exactly. I think we’re way too much and this is the part that is not sustainable. Unfortunately it’s apparently way more trendy to become vegan than to say we’re simply too much.

I became a vegan 15 years ago because I couldn't morally justify the unnecessary raising and killing other individuals. You may not agree, but writing that decision off as "trendy" is more than a bit condescending.

Every study I've seen on the Earth's carrying capacity came to the conclusion that we could support at least a few more billion humans. So why you believe it's more correct to say we have a population problem than a consumption problem?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#194

Post by hamax » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

drivingmenuts wrote: post #190

Already__Taken wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a few of kinds of these burgers and honestly they're really nailing it with meat as a description.

Except for lying about it being meat. That definition should be reserved for animal-based protein.

Why do you want to change the definition of the word meat?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#195

Post by bigfudge » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #174

tonyarkles wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m on my phone at the moment and can’t break down that list line-by-line, but in Canada you already do pay surcharges for many (not all) of those things. E-waste is nominally priced at the cost of recycling for various device types; electricity, natural gas, and gasoline, and aviation all have a (not insignificant!) carbon tax associated with them.

Good news, but that's in Canada. Where else?

Most of the EU. It’s only the US and Australia that are so backward in environmental issues among western democracies.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#196

Post by bearbawl » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

hamax wrote: post #147

bearbawl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that’s not meat?

Definition of meat by merriam-webster: a: FOOD especially : solid food as distinguished from drink b: the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell)

Do I really have to find another source that somehow « counter » your post and give a « definition » of what meat is or how it is generally employed for?

I mean, we really are there?

If you make a barbecue party, do you discuss the new meaning of « meat » by the « I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about website »?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#197

Post by fsflover » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #181

danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Do you have any links to sources or further reading material regarding this current state of affairs? It seems not entirely obvious, nor easily checked for a casual reader. (Maybe that's part of the issue of why this is not a more popular topic yet.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_price

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_subsidy

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#198

Post by Someone1234 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

If it says plant-based meat, I am going to try it since it aims to simulate a taste/texture I know I like. If it says "vegetarian" I assume it will taste bad, because historically that has been the case.

That's an anecdote, but I don't think I am an edge case, many people have tried an Impossible Burger who had little to no interest in trying a vegetarian burger.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#199

Post by jcampbell1 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

dsomers wrote: post #151

jcampbell1 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protein yield per acre for soybeans vs mung beans is 6x. No amount of try hard is going to make mung bean protein close in price to soy. What gets me is that I can’t even source tofu that is cheaper than chicken. Chickens are very good reactors for turning carbohydrates into protein.

Is that because soy has been engineered that way and mung beans have not? I pose the question because I remember my grand uncle who has been a soy farmer his whole life telling me that when they switched to Monsanto seeds they got some huge multiple of crop yield, 3x? 4x? I can’t remember the exact multiple I just remember it seeming like a lot.

Generally when people refer to Monsanto seeds, they mean Roundup ready soy. The glyphosate resistant gene actually reduces yield by 5%. The upside is you either have huge labor savings from not having to deal with weeds manually, or you get yield increases compared to co-cropping with weeds.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#200

Post by bigfudge » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

eznzt wrote: post #177

jrimbault wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned the political structure of the European Union in school, several times, once in middle school, once in high shool, with many repetitions in between. If you haven't learned you might either be older than me (I'm near thirty) or the education system in your country has worse issues than mine, or just not interested in Wikipedia ?

Interesting. I see you are French--that makes sense, since it's only France and Germany ruling the EU.

This is an absurd big lie which is so often repeated. Germany has great influence because it pays so much for the EU but all member states have the veto...