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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

The question is how feasible it is? Is it a trivial change in lifestyle? Is it more expensive or cheaper? Can you make it work with the basic fare that you find everywhere, or do you need to shop around for plant products that are more exotic?

> The question is how feasible it is?

In my experience (omnivore -> vegetarian -> vegan), going vegetarian is not too difficult. Going something like pescatarian, or even just eliminating red meat -- that's downright easy. I am not a particularly great cook, but my grocery bill dropped noticeably when I went vegetarian because I was buying more vegetables for the first time in my life. Even when eating out I had to make very few adjustments. Most restaurants around me have great vegetarian menus. I feel like it's not a particularly difficult transition to make.

On the other hand, going vegan was harder. Part of this is how good you are at cooking. Part of it is that you have to research a bit more. I take supplements (D3, K2, B12) as a vegan. I never worried for a second about my nutritional input when I went vegetarian. And again, if you're going pescetarian and still eating a fair bit of cheese/eggs, I just really doubt nutrition is a concern for most people. But after going vegan, suddenly I had to actually think about some of these nutritional questions that I was able to ignore before because I just ate a lot of eggs and cheese.

You can make veganism a lot cheaper (and plenty of people do), but I'm lazy and bad at cooking, so I buy more specialty vegan products, which are expensive. I put up with it, it's fine, it's doable, but being vegan is annoying sometimes, and it requires more work.

Again, it's doable. It's fine, lots of people make it work, I make it work. You can be vegan and healthy. But in terms of effort/work to be healthy and to keep costs down, I think that veganism and vegetarianism are in separate categories.

But importantly, you don't need to go vegan to see improvements here. If you're talking about "meat-avoiding" in general, just getting rid of red meat from your diet will have a positive environmental impact, and will probably be both healthier and cheaper as long as you put at least a tiny bit of effort into not just eating only Impossible burgers and mac&cheese. You can already in many places get raw tofu significantly cheaper than red meat, and after that it's really just learning how to make stir fries and figuring out 'new' foods like mushrooms and beans.

Part of the benefits here are that in general, most people who aren't following a specific diet probably shouldn't eat as much meat as they do anyway. So if the end result is that you eat one serving of plant-based meat alongside some eggs/veggies/beans, instead of three servings of steak, that's very likely to be both healthier and cheaper.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cows and livestock are great for environment. They eat plants and clear vegetation and the poop converts to nutrients in soil. People should demand and buy better meat from better farms with better practices.

There is no way to satisfy the growing demand for meat in a way that is not damaging to the environment. And that's leaving aside any questions of ethics for the animals themselves.

There is no way to satisfy the growing in a way that is not damaging to the environment. And that’s leaving aside any questions of ethics themselves.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#133
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protein yield per acre for soybeans vs mung beans is 6x. No amount of try hard is going to make mung bean protein close in price to soy. What gets me is that I can’t even source tofu that is cheaper than chicken. Chickens are very good reactors for turning carbohydrates into protein.

>The protein yield per acre for soybeans vs mung beans is 6x. While this is probably not too unfair for mung vs. soy, it's important to remember that yield per acre can't always be compared directly across crops that grow in different climates. Tropical climates can average well over 50" of rain per year while cold climates are wet if they hit 25", and the conservation of mass already affects cold-climate growth befo…

The optimal crop certainly depends on weather. In northern Brazil they double crop corn for insane yields of 22M calories per acre. In Wisconsin they grow wheat for 4m calories per acre. Farmers in the Midwest split between soybean (oil/protein 6m calories per acre) and corn (carbs 11m calories per acre).

Optimizing yield per acre, adjusting for the value of oil/protein/carbs and weather is the best explanation for the current state of what gets planted.

If you have a desert with access to cheap labor, water, and transportation, then the best thing to do is sell organic strawberries to rich people. Rich people don’t like spots on their fruit.

I am a believer that the invisible hand is what drives farm decisions. As soon as someone invents a robot that can pick blueberries and deliver them to a store, I’ll never eat another banana.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#135
post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Have you considered why we do this? How would our society be different if only well-to-do people could eat meat regularly? Would a regular guy be content with wealthy people eating steaks while jet-setting around the globe because of climate change?

I think a populist uprising would occur almost immediately and we’d see heads on pikes with their decapitated mouths stuffed with cabbage for all to see. It would be super easy for a party to take advantage of this and they would.

In short, it would be a miserable time.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#136
post #2

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

I agree. Why call something that is not meat "meat"? It seems that the only valid arguments is that the term is used as a marketing strategy to confuse consumers or appeal to their subconscious.

It's because it's meant as a meat substitute. As far as I'm concerned it's very much conscious, if you want to make the veggie version of, say, a chicken dish you'll buy "veggie chicken" which is meant to have similar characteristics (usually in terms of flavor, appearance and consistence, not necessarily nutritional).

It's hard for me not to dismiss these concerns are pure pearl clutching (or is it concern trolling? I'm not up to date on my internet debate lingo). If people really don't pay attention to the meat products they buy and they end up with veggie meat by mistake, there's a very good chance that they would've very easily ended up with some crappy ultra-processed low quality "technically meat" product instead. They might actually be better off with the plant option, quality-wise.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#137
post #3
post #2

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

I completely agree. That's one area where europe is much better than the US, they tend to force stuff to be labeled what it is.

Just recently EP considered banning veggie burgers with the reasoning that something called a burger needs to contain dead animal parts.[0]

I'm glad they changed their mind.

[0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-...

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get rid of subsidies and then poor people can’t eat meat. Good luck dealing with the political fallout from that. Subsidized meat is a special kind of a American socialism where the wealthy tax payers fund the subsidies so everyone else can eat meat. Honestly, so many of the ideas for addressing climate just prevent poor people from participating. The upper middle class who are most concerned with these issues (a…

> You get rid of subsidies and then poor people can’t eat meat So stop subsidizing meat and spend the same money augmenting the income of the poor , then poor people will be at least as able to eat meat and be at least as well off when doing so as they were with the meat sibaidies, while those who choose not to will be even better off than they were with meat subsidies.

Why would people that pay taxes prefer that model? So, I pay the same taxes and then I also get to spend a lot more on food for my family?

Good luck getting support for that.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fine with them having non-dairy beverages, but they aren’t “substitutes” nutritionally just because they have milk in the name. If your 1 year old is drinking almond milk (30cal and 1g protein per 8oz) instead of whole milk (150 cal and 8 gr protein per 8 oz), you need to adjust what you’re feeding, just like you would if you were giving any other drink. The issue is some people seem to assume liquids that are la…

And skim milk is 85 and 8, while soy milk is 130 and 8. So I agree that different kinds of 'milk' have wildly different nutrition, but it's not really about dairy vs. non-dairy.

Yes, the problem is not dairy vs. non-dairy, it is with feeding kids who have been weaned a vegetarian or vegan diet in general. For instance, the following is a recent study (July 2020):

Vegetarian and Vegan Weaning of the Infant: How Common and How Evidence-Based? A Population-Based Survey and Narrative Review

Background: Vegetarian and vegan weaning have increasing popularity among parents and families. However, if not correctly managed, they may lead to wrong feeding regimens, causing severe nutritional deficiencies requiring specific nutritional support or even the need for hospitalization. Aim: To assess the prevalence of vegetarian and vegan weaning among Italian families and to provide an up-to-date narrative review of supporting evidence. Materials and methods: We investigated 360 Italian families using a 40-item questionnaire. The narrative review was conducted searching scientific databases for articles reporting on vegetarian and vegan weaning. Results: 8.6% of mothers follow an alternative feeding regimen and 9.2% of infants were weaned according to a vegetarian or vegan diet. The breastfeeding duration was longer in vegetarian/vegan infants (15.8 vs. 9.7 months; p

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7370013/

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#140
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words are important. Kind of disappointing that you fail to understand that, really.

And language constantly evolves. Also it’s irrelevant to the content of the article.

Upvoted because in retrospect I agree
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