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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#431

Post by ClumsyPilot »

jmull wrote: post #288
rcoveson wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confident we only disagree on the threshold of injustice. Surely there is a point where exiting the market is the only moral thing to do? Or does the responsibility-proportional-to-power argument justify subjecting your business to literally any law? To me, this law is past the threshold where it is morally acceptable to continue to do business in that nation. For you, that threshold is somewhere else, but I'm co…

> Surely there is a point where exiting the market is the only moral thing to do? Agreed. But I don't think this case is it. Mainly because exiting does pretty much nothing to prevent Pakistani persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslims. It's like you see a bully picking on a kid every day at the park and you just decide to go to a different park. Maybe you feel a little better about it yourself, but it doesn't help the kid. T…

"exiting does pretty much nothing to prevent Pakistani persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslims"

Theybare direvtly enabling it in a way pakistani government would be unable to without them. And they are not going to give up smartphones if both Google and apple refuse.

Surely if hypothetical bazis asked Google and Apple for location of all jews, you would not be like "well, they can't loose business over this"

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#432

Post by ClumsyPilot »

shadowgovt wrote: post #181
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

it's more that their morality includes compliance with the laws of the states they operate in. It always has, and they will buck those laws on extremely rare occasions, usually when they believe they are seeing a mis-implementation of the laws, and (when outside the US) usually by ceasing to do business in the territory (see: Google's pullback from China). None of what we're seeing in Pakistan right now is new for te…

> "their morality includes compliance with the laws of the states they operate in. It always has"

I will believe it when they pay their taxes

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#433

Post by ClumsyPilot »

sofixa wrote: post #81
gostsamo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll say it here again: There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime.

Even the definition of basic human rights is disputed. Just check the topics of abortion, access to internet, property, religious freedoms, sexual orientation. In some countries some of those are defined as basic human rights, in others some are outright banned.

Basic human rights are not 'access to internet", they are things like 'not being tortured' which are generally accepted from US to mongolia.

Sure its fuzzy around the edges but like the pamous supreme court case with porn: "i know it when i see it"

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#434

Post by mindslight »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #429
mindslight wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or what? A physical presence is one of the only leverage points they'd have over you. If you don't accede to that, what are they going to do? Obviously I'm describing a much different tack than Google and Apple have chosen, and switching between the two isn't easy. But the point is that Google and Apple could have set themselves up this way, likely with the full blessing of the State Department. They chose not to and…

Eh, it does not sound like you thought this through. I would prefer my medical data to reside in my country, so that its governed by privacy laws I vited for. The whole blockclain free-for-all ungovernable banansa has it's place, but its not for everything.

It sounds like you live in a country that is not Pakistan, where it's likely to make more sense for tech companies to operate within the system rather than staying outside of it. Even so, it would ultimately be up to you whether to trust any specific company with your "medical data", with one of the factors being whether they were bound by your country's legal system or not.

And who mentioned anything about blockchain? The philosophy of routing around censorship and end user empowerment is much older than blockchains, and that you're pigeonholing the ethos as "blockchain" just shows how much we've forgotten.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#435

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #412
babesh wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can do any of the following: - stop branding their morality (especially Apple) - stop doing business in Pakistan You go try asking them.

> stop branding their morality You can’t seriously think this would have any effect on Pakistan’s regime. > You go try asking them. Ok, so you don’t know what people in Pakistan want. How is it ethical for you to argue that they should not be allowed Google or Apple’s products?

I said they were hypocrites. Not that it would have an effect. It would end their hypocrisy.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#436

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #413
babesh wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t take a moral stand when everyone else takes a moral stand. Someone has to be first.

You also don’t take a moral stand when it would do more harm than good. Someone has to be sensible, and not hurt people just to please vocal activists in another country.

That is oh so convenient and so wrong. It’s also known as the not my problem argument.

Suppose you lived in England in 1861. Would you choose to do business with the Confederacy? Where is your magic calculator that shows you would do more harm than good by not doing business with them? In reality there isn’t one and you can’t make the calculation based on that. Instead, the magic calculator always swings to do business because it is profitable to do so.

What happened to Google when it left China? Those services just got magically replaced. Search replaced. Streaming replaced. Cloud services replaced.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#437

Post by andrewnicolalde »

rpdillon wrote: post #422
andrewnicolalde wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does one of those choices seriously not sound worse than the other?

It depends on how you measure "worse". I gather you're alluding to the moral argument, and I completely agree: Google leaving Pakistan is my gut reaction to this. But public companies have shareholders that demand the company optimize for revenue, so I assume they are balancing that as well. This means they are weighing value systems against one another. I was trying to highlight an opportunity to encourage other app…

I understand. Apologies if I came off as confrontational. You make good points.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#438

Post by selimthegrim »

pas wrote: post #420
wreckagedemon wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in" Perhaps you should blame the people, if by the people you mean the Pakistani populace. I say this as a Pakistani. The issue of discrimination towards Ahmedis is something that has widespread support among the populace. From uneducated masses to university professors, poor to rich. Very few people actually oppose the discriminatio…

Why are Pakistani people dismissive of arguments for support for Ahmedis? Sure, it might be ultimately their own making, but how much of that is the product of brainwashing by certain rival groups trying to gain power? It seems the people are just as much trapped in this, even if they don't realize. (Like the QAnon cultists in the US. And there's a very big political party in the US basically cheering them on for ver…

The best analogy I could give you is the Mormons in the 1830s, or Jews for Jesus if the Orthodox Jews were in charge of enforcing penalties on the books for "epikoros"

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#439

Post by quetzthecoatl »

webmobdev wrote: post #322
nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…

India is not secular, and whatever goes on in India in the name of secularism is the exact opposite of it. Rights are sanctioned and denied based on religious identity.

In case you want to know how bad it is, the ones the most oppressed and poor are the lower caste hindus, and even now, it's illegal for a lower caste hindu to open and run school exclusively for lower caste hindus even with his own money. It's not just that state won't do it, but it has made it illegal for individual citizens to do it as well. Remember these are the folks with no money, no land and no connections. Their only means for social mobility is education. Meanwhile, a christian or muslim does it, he/she gets state funding, and the upper caste hindus are well off and connected. It's just caste system with extra steps. Of course this is well supported by upper caste hindus, muslims and christians - the old elite class.

Aside from that, hindu temples and institutions are managed by the state and taxed, while other religions gets absolute freedom to run their institutions however - taxfree. Again, this is relic of colonial briton who really wanted to control the hindus as the main opposition to the raj came in the form of hindu nationalism.

It's a religious apartheid state against the poor hindus - a relic of colonialism happily continued by the Indian elites who wielded power once the british left most likely because they hated the poor hindus even more than the british themselves.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#440

Post by quetzthecoatl »

snambi wrote: post #385
webmobdev wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…

Uh uh... most of this is untrue. The "Indian Secularism" is mostly what was leftover from the colonial era mixed with Traditional Hindu values. However, the Govt tries to "correct" or "change" the Native traditions periodically.

absolutely. "Indian secularism" is the exact opposite of secularism. It's just discrimination on the basis of religious identity.
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