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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#411

Post by valarauko »

nashashmi wrote: post #391
valarauko wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The community also produced Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate, and the first Muslim to receive a Nobel for science. Upon his death, the Pakistani government defaced his gravestone to remove the word "muslim". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

Indeed they are highly educated minority. Often it is thought that the British facilitated their establishment and growth and gave them opportunities both in the colony and abroad from which they prospered.

That supposes some sort of concerted action by the British Raj, which I don't think was the case. Rather, the early Ahmadi Caliphs were keen to state their loyalty to the British as their temporal masters, and that the hands-off British rule was preferable to native princes, especially the Sikhs. Like other evangelical movements in such an environment, they flourished.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#412

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #405
zepto wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - I just don’t think Apple has the power to stop religious repression in Pakistan. Despite being asked, you haven’t actually explained how they can do this. Also, I ask again: do the people of Pakistan want Apple to abandon their customers in Pakistan?

They can do any of the following: - stop branding their morality (especially Apple) - stop doing business in Pakistan You go try asking them.

> stop branding their morality

You can’t seriously think this would have any effect on Pakistan’s regime.

> You go try asking them.

Ok, so you don’t know what people in Pakistan want.

How is it ethical for you to argue that they should not be allowed Google or Apple’s products?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#413

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #395
zepto wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not remotely connected. There is no international sanctions campaign aimed at forcing Pakistan to support freedom of religion. There isn’t even any significant international response. The argument is that in the absence of any international action against Pakistan that might actually cause change, it is better for the people to continue to have smartphones, access to Google search, etc. If there was any inter…

You don’t take a moral stand when everyone else takes a moral stand. Someone has to be first.

You also don’t take a moral stand when it would do more harm than good.

Someone has to be sensible, and not hurt people just to please vocal activists in another country.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#414

Post by [deleted] »

stale2002 wrote: post #292
jmull wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so. I don't dispute that Apple and Google do gatekeeping. They do. We can discuss the pros and cons of it. But that is simply not issue here.

> The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so. In general, we do not see governments doing this, no. For example, I am sure that some people in Pakistan own intel/windows computers. But Pakistan is not making laws that require every single intel/windows computer to block certain content, at the hardware level of the PC. That is so…

[deleted]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#415

Post by andrewnicolalde »

rpdillon wrote: post #397
snoshy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

Both choices seem terrible to me: either stop serving swaths of users or take part in removing their freedom. If Apple and Google fostered a strong community of alternative app stores, they wouldn't have to make this choice at all.

Does one of those choices seriously not sound worse than the other?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#416

Post by pas »

amelius wrote: post #369
pas wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they choose not to do business will that fix the problem? Will that make these oppressive regimes go away? Monetary greed might be good or bad, they might or might not be doing business there for greed, but it's not the question. The question is how does oppression algebra works. An oppressive regime is oppressive, by definition, nomen es omen. In this instance we likely agree that forcing private companies to sel…

> In this case maybe the analogy is that Apple/Google is supplying water - for money - but this oppressive regime uses it to waterboard people. Does shutting down the service helps?) Judging from posts here, many people are trying to get off Google. So a better analogy instead of water would be nicotine.

I recommend everybody to do so too. But not for this direct moral reason. (Which I'm honestly and sadly too ignorant and uncertain about.) I think there's room for smaller/niche providers, a subculture of self-hosters.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#417

Post by boomboomsubban »

Layke1123 wrote: post #380
boomboomsubban wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I won't draw my exact lines, an annotated version of the Qur'an for your sect pretty clearly should be allowed.

What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that? What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples? I'm curious if you can draw the lines on those or if that's harder to say "this is clearly allowed".

>What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that?

Like the Qur'an? No problems bud.

>What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples?

If I actually thought their religion truly believed that, absolutely a-ok. If they were doing it to be assholes, I'd still have no problems with it but I understand why there would be some people very upset and wish they would voluntarily stop.

That's also how I view depictions of Muhammad, if apps involving that were what Pakistan banned I'd see every party involved as objectionable. Here there's a clear victim.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#418

Post by webmobdev »

snambi wrote: post #385
webmobdev wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…

Uh uh... most of this is untrue. The "Indian Secularism" is mostly what was leftover from the colonial era mixed with Traditional Hindu values. However, the Govt tries to "correct" or "change" the Native traditions periodically.

Obviously our colonial history has had a huge impact on our psyche, and influenced our democracy. As for "traditonal hindu values" or "native traditions", these are clever bogus arguments used by the current right-wing to do away with the indian secularism envisioned and enshrined in our constitution.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#419

Post by pas »

snoshy wrote: post #402
pas wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they choose not to do business will that fix the problem? Will that make these oppressive regimes go away? Monetary greed might be good or bad, they might or might not be doing business there for greed, but it's not the question. The question is how does oppression algebra works. An oppressive regime is oppressive, by definition, nomen es omen. In this instance we likely agree that forcing private companies to sel…

Oppressive regimes even of the most extreme order still need to deal with reality and the choices of other parties that aren't fully within their control. If Google/Apple were to take a stand here and walk away, it would put tremendous pressure on Pakistani government, and make this a hot button issue. Imagine the entire nation waking up one day to find that their apps no longer function because their leaders made ch…

China did it. Many countries routinely block Google stuff.

> It would certainly cause the constituents of these regimes to reconsider their support of the leaders.

How can we be certain of that? I think many people drastically underestimate the number of people who a) don't care b) are invested in the regime c) gullible d) care, but won't do anything because they don't want to rock the boat, e) care, want to rock the boat, but won't because protesting is still not without some danger.

Yes, sure, other political parties would do whatever they do. Does that work? Not really. (Maybe over long-long periods of time.)

> When Google/Apple remove these apps from their stores, they're directly taking action to further the oppression.

Agreed. Yet it's close to meaningless to look at it in a vacuum. Their choices are a) comply, don't even put up a fight, b) comply, try to exhaust legal options, b) stop doing business there.

I'm asking how to weigh those. What's best for the people of Pakistan. What's best for this particular vulnerable/oppressed group? What's best for all people?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#420

Post by pas »

wreckagedemon wrote: post #406
franga2000 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, not being able to use Google or Apple products would be such a hit to the modern way of life that people might become less complacent. To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in, but it makes sense that people would be more likely to stand up to tyranny when something very important to them is swiftly taken away. Even the simple act of taking a stance against these…

"To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in" Perhaps you should blame the people, if by the people you mean the Pakistani populace. I say this as a Pakistani. The issue of discrimination towards Ahmedis is something that has widespread support among the populace. From uneducated masses to university professors, poor to rich. Very few people actually oppose the discriminatio…

Why are Pakistani people dismissive of arguments for support for Ahmedis? Sure, it might be ultimately their own making, but how much of that is the product of brainwashing by certain rival groups trying to gain power? It seems the people are just as much trapped in this, even if they don't realize. (Like the QAnon cultists in the US. And there's a very big political party in the US basically cheering them on for very-very-very short sighted goals.)

People ought to know better, people have the responsibility to better themselves, their thought patterns, their reasoning, refine their worldview ... but if their ability to do so is already thin, it's hard to blame people, since - it seems - they had very little power to act responsible.

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