Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

buzzfeednews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 515 posts

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#361

Post by yibg »

sk5t wrote: post #177
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Just as we have laws that prevent US organizations from giving or taking bribes even in countries where bribes are legal (FCPA), and US laws prevent US individuals from overseas sex tourism which would be illegal on US soil, what prevents us from requiring US organizations not to participate in religious oppression, child exploitation, and other such acts?

Would this not just lead to a fragmentation of whatever industry? e.g. if google / apple can't legally do business in Pakistan or some other countries because of these laws, presumably someone like China will step in and provided the missing products or services. Not that this is necessarily a bad situation ethnically anyways, but there are consequences.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#362

Post by sneak »

LiberatedLlama wrote: post #324
sneak wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "provider of the platform" should have no power to have any say in what apps are installed on a user-owned device, in which case it would be impossible to coerce them into banning this or that. What if end users who buy the device WANT the manufacturer to have that power, to keep their device malware- and spyware-free?

Do you think Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan want Apple and the Pakistani government to forbid them from installing the software they like? Do you think they feel safe because of this? It is common for totalitarian systems to cite user/citizen safety to justify themselves. I encourage you to see past this bullshit.

I am talking about my own telephone, also from Apple.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#363

Post by mr_toad »

rat87 wrote: post #351
nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Laicite is stupid France doesn't understand freedom of religion, a fundamental human right which they have pledged to uphold. Take the french school headscarf ban or the stupid outrage about the Burkini

> freedom of religion, a fundamental human right

They believe in not forcing people to follow a state religion. That’s not the same as letting people do whatever they want because “religion”.

It’s not like most religions believe in freedom of religion anyway. The same people who argue for the right to wear certain headwear belong to a religion that prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#364

Post by selimthegrim »

shadowgovt wrote: post #283
fakedang wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the iOS users? AFAIK, it's more likely the Ahmadiyyas have iPhones since they are a relatively well-off community compared to the rest of Pakistan (or the Muslim world in general).

Very good point. I had my viewpoint focused on Android and forgot that the side-loading question on Apple is very different.

I can tell you none of my cousins over there who belong to that community had an iPhone last time I saw them, they were busy making fun of an old iPhone I had brought to sell compared to their Androids

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#365

Post by selimthegrim »

screye wrote: post #329

Information and Economic warfare should be seen as no different than physical warfare with weapons. (That is the crux of 4G and 5G warfare as is officially acknowledged in militaries today) Google & Apple provide asymmetrical resources to 1 group (Pakistani Govt.) over the other (Ahmidiyas). This is no different than the US selling weapons only to the Saudis but not to Yemen. The Saudi situation is clearly seen by ev…

I mean, that's just not true, in 1948 they volunteered for the Kashmir conflict. Deendar Anjuman aside on top of it, whether they want to rewrite history is up to them. Currently they do have a better PR and track record it seems.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#366

Post by jpttsn »

nvrspyx wrote: post #276
d1zzy wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. Nor should they even attempt to, because the moment they get involved in policy making you have an army of HNs complaining how large corporations influence politics.

No one asked for them to get involved in policy making. They're referring to making their platforms more open such that neither Apple nor Google have complete dictation of what is downloaded and installed. Especially in Apple's case, this would be a useless ban if they let people download apps outside of the App Store.

Do you think Apple would make as much money from iPhones if they allowed side loading?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#367

Post by foolmeonce »

passivate wrote: post #355
foolmeonce wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are saying companies should break US laws regarding a topic (religious discrimination) while abroad in order to honor foreign laws if that is necessary in order to operate in a country. I think they should not consider operating in that fashion. They can push for regulation themselves if on their withdrawal they want to prevent an advantage to less ethical US competitors who stay.

I don't get it. Why would any government allow a business to operate if they don't respect local laws. Would the US allow that? On principle, I sort of reject this notion that a giant corporation(s) should be encouraged to meddle in the internal matters of other countries. I think these kinds of moves will be perceived very differently by the locals. The famous line "They will welcome us as liberators with open arms.…

Finance is the peaceful other means if you enforce laws on the people you can in order to keep it peaceful.

US companies won't be running Uyghur reeducation camps in China even though that is lawful in China and may be their best way to source the right labor.

Is everything happening anyway and with more cost by keeping a separation between US companies/nationals and crimes under US law? Sure. Is it still better? Mercenaries that come back having done "legal" things in foreign countries are a social plague and their connections to groups the US considers criminal are problematic.

To not pick only on China, any US national who works with spyware for the Saudi regime is a criminal under US law, and that is important because they need to be watched when they return to the US to prevent them from assisting in assasinations in US/Canada. Does it matter if the crown prince made their actions in Saudi Arabia legal?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#368

Post by selimthegrim »

etc-hosts wrote: post #346

I fell down Internet hole and read https://www.reddit.com/r/Ahmadiyya_Truth/comments/bb7il1/ame... They could have at least spelled Nancy Pelosi correctly.

Shahid's brother Rashid is the real issue, a vaccine truther and quack.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#369

Post by amelius »

pas wrote: post #282
snoshy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

If they choose not to do business will that fix the problem? Will that make these oppressive regimes go away? Monetary greed might be good or bad, they might or might not be doing business there for greed, but it's not the question. The question is how does oppression algebra works. An oppressive regime is oppressive, by definition, nomen es omen. In this instance we likely agree that forcing private companies to sel…

> In this case maybe the analogy is that Apple/Google is supplying water - for money - but this oppressive regime uses it to waterboard people. Does shutting down the service helps?)

Judging from posts here, many people are trying to get off Google. So a better analogy instead of water would be nicotine.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#370

Post by COGlory »

djrogers wrote: post #213
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

So is ethically IBM criticism free for their role in the holocaust?
Post reply on HN