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Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

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Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#81

Post by barrkel »

slibhb wrote: post #72
barrkel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's not a closed question. I'm mostly pointing out, as an example, the fact that society operates the mechanics of justice these days, it is the interests of society that are paramount. Making individuals whole is a part of that, but avoiding repetition is also vital, or else the punishment plays a part in causing crime later.

In my opinion you vastly overestimate your ability to answer questions like "what are the interests of society?" and "what causes crime?"

I don't think I have the ability. I can, however, say with a some certainty that retribution is not principal component of justice, because a moment's consideration shows more considerations at play.

Retribution had a place - in Babylonian times, when eye for an eye was the rule. Things have moved on.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#82

Post by swebs »

dudul wrote: post #65
whimsicalism wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well how much were you all paying?

What does it have to do with the quality of the candidates? Salaries are often not discussed before the end of the process, especially for junior roles where applicants can rarely force the hiring manager/recruiter to disclose a budget.

They could just check Glassdoor.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#83

Post by pwinnski »

adamc wrote: post #37
lldbg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

I am interested in whether there is any actual evidence retribution works, in terms of recidivism. My first guess would be that the awful experiences in prison just fuck up people more.

Your first guess is borne out by the recidivism rate, which is in the high-80s nationwisde.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#84

Post by bluefirebrand »

giarc wrote: post #26
underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

My grandfather and my high school science teacher both taught in youth "detention centres" for periods in their career. They both said students there were better behaved than regular schools. For the "inmates" (for lack of better term), school was a privilege and if they misbehaved, they couldn't attend. School was a good break from your cell/room.

Kind of funny that kids (and adults) often have a mentality that school is/was a prison, something they were sent to against their will.

When people are in prison and school becomes something that can be taken away, it looks more like a privilege.

Human brains are weird.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#86

Post by WalterBright »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #84
giarc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandfather and my high school science teacher both taught in youth "detention centres" for periods in their career. They both said students there were better behaved than regular schools. For the "inmates" (for lack of better term), school was a privilege and if they misbehaved, they couldn't attend. School was a good break from your cell/room.

Kind of funny that kids (and adults) often have a mentality that school is/was a prison, something they were sent to against their will. When people are in prison and school becomes something that can be taken away, it looks more like a privilege. Human brains are weird.

What I most enjoyed about school was being with my friends.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#87

Post by jandrese »

crispyambulance wrote: post #55
underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

It's really hard for an audience on HN to truly appreciate the situations incarcerated people find themselves in. I think it's fine to "teach prisoners coding" as along as the people involved are aware that to even get to that point, how much BASIC education has to be re-done or done for the first time. Moreover, things like resumes, job hunting, and relating to people in a work environment is something that these fo…

It's hard to improve the situation without people screaming about how you're CODDLING MURDERERS! Especially when it involves spending taxpayer money, even if it saves enormous sums in the long run due to reduced recidivism. Many voters are unhappy with anything less than recreating Dante's Inferno, so it is politically risky to implement these reforms that have been so successful in other countries.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#88

Post by WalterBright »

slibhb wrote: post #46
barrkel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ is an overview, and it's not short - but on plain sight, I'd say that since it is the public, through the medium of government, that enforces justice, it should do so with a utilitarian view. Society has a vital interest in reintegrating people wh…

> What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. It seems right to me. In my opinion, justice comes from the concept of reciprocity. In other words, if someone does bad, it is just that bad is done to them (retribution). The reverse is also true: it is just that good things occur to people who do good deeds. > Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu…

The idea of prisons should be to simply keep people away from society so they cannot harm others. There's no need to heap punishment on top of that. That's medieval and doesn't belong in modern civilization.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#89

Post by bluefirebrand »

sokoloff wrote: post #64
whimsicalism wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many entry level tech jobs today, I think you'll find the bar is considerably higher.

If the bar is considerably higher than "can very likely code", then I question whether those roles are actually entry-level. We hire dozens of entry level roles per year. That's our bar (of course, coupled with "is authorized to work where the role is").

> If the bar is considerably higher than "can very likely code", then I question whether those roles are actually entry-level

I think discussions around "entry level" jobs are often muddied by the dual meanings of the term.

Companies want to hire experienced people as "entry level" to their company. As in, the position we are hiring you for does not have any kind of seniority.

Fresh Grads want to find an "entry level" position to the entire industry.

This confusion is part of why you see "entry level" job postings asking for years of experience, essentially asking for an intermediate skill level, not a junior skill level.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#90

Post by slibhb »

barrkel wrote: post #81
slibhb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion you vastly overestimate your ability to answer questions like "what are the interests of society?" and "what causes crime?"

I don't think I have the ability. I can, however, say with a some certainty that retribution is not principal component of justice, because a moment's consideration shows more considerations at play. Retribution had a place - in Babylonian times, when eye for an eye was the rule. Things have moved on.

Things haven't moved on. All modern justice systems continue to be based on retribution. They seek to punish the guilty (proportionally to their crimes) and to exonerate the innocent. It's all well and good to argue "this punishment is too severe, it does not fit the crime". But to argue that "the world has moved on" from retributive justice is just naivete.

If you're interested in a defense of retributive justice, read Kant:

> Punishment by a court can never be inflicted merely as a means to promote some other good for the criminal himself or for civil society. Punishment can only be inflicted in response to a crime committed, i.e., retributive justice only. A human being ought never to be treated merely as a means to an end as all human beings have an innate personality even thought they may be condemned to lose their civil personality. The law of punishment is a categorical imperative, and woe to him who crawls through the windings of eudaemonism in order to discover something that releases the criminal from punishment or even reduces its amount by the advantage it promises, in accordance with the pharisaical saying, “It is better for one man to die than for an entire people to perish.” For if justice goes, then so does the value of human beings. However, what if a proposal comes forwards to preserve the life of a criminal sentenced to death in exchange for allowing dangerous experiments to be performed, so that physicians can learn something of benefit to the commonwealth? A court would reject with contempt such a proposal form a medical college, for justice ceases to be justice if it can be bought for any price whatsoever.

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