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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#311

Post by sneak »

mabbo wrote: post #280
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Context for anyone who doesn't know: Apple, by law, operates iCloud/iMessage servers in China in the physical control of the CCP (presumably enabling wiretapping and censorship on-demand) to be able to offer those services to iPhone users in China.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/25/18020508/how-china-compl...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#312

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #211
zepto wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might think that it’s better for people to have access to their technology than not to, even if certain apps are unavailable. Would it be ethical for them to abandon all of their customers in Pakistan over this?

Yes it would be ethical to abandon their customers over this. Apparently religious freedom isn’t where you draw the line. What other rights are you willing to abandon?

Their customers live in a country without religious freedom.

Do you think Apple has the power to change that?

If they don’t do business there their customers are objectively worse off.

Not only do they not have religious freedom, but they also don’t have access to technology.

That seems wrong to me.

I wonder what people in Pakistan would say?

Would most of them really want these companies to leave?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#314

Post by LiberatedLlama »

mindslight wrote: post #307
mcguire wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, Pakistan (along with China, Vietnam, Germany, Nigeria, and Russia among others) requires physical presence and data localization in order to do business.

Or what? A physical presence is one of the only leverage points they'd have over you. If you don't accede to that, what are they going to do? Obviously I'm describing a much different tack than Google and Apple have chosen, and switching between the two isn't easy. But the point is that Google and Apple could have set themselves up this way, likely with the full blessing of the State Department. They chose not to and…

> Their situation is a bit stickier being hardware brands,

I agree with your general point but not this part. Apple products still find their way into countries with no Apple Stores. I don't think selling physical products really makes the situation much sticker. If Apple chose to be a pure hardware company and refused to do any business in Pakistan, Pakistanis could still purchase Apple devices through the usual resellers and/or [black/gray]markets. Pakistan would have no leverage over Apple, as you point out, and Apple would not be a participant in the implementation totalitarianism (as they presently are.)

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#315

Post by foolmeonce »

mcguire wrote: post #305
foolmeonce wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make the same arguments for bribery. Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad and US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics. Why is this law good? The US has a long history of corporations owning too much in banana republics and bringing the US into pro-dictator political positions.

" ...US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics. " Do you have a source for that? I have run across instances of US companies using various schemes to avoid the appearance of bribes (usually involving paying a "consultant" a large amount of money and paying no attention to how the consultant gets the business done), but I know of none getting rid of their businesses in other countries.

Chiquita/Columbia/FARC after Sept 11, AFAIK the actual crime they were fined for was the bribery (past payments to govt side), though they had the new problem of terrorist lists (any future payments to FARC side).

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#316

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #289
zepto wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the least. South Africa ultimately was pressured by wide ranging sanctions from nation states. That would be a good way to proceed in this case too.

I was referring to the companies that were against the sanctions.

Apple is not against sanctions, so there is no comparison.

If the US government includes technology restrictions as sanctions against Pakistan, I expect Apple would comply.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#317

Post by sneak »

username90 wrote: post #150
jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

You're right that if they ran open platforms where they don't have the power to ban apps this never would have happened: someone else who made a basically malware-free experience for phones would be in that position instead.

An "open platform" where every inexperienced user can install whatever they want on their device is a world where most every phone has several remote access malware/spyware packages installed on it.

Centralizing these functions is good, in some respects.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#318

Post by alacombe »

sneak wrote: post #311
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Context for anyone who doesn't know: Apple, by law, operates iCloud/iMessage servers in China in the physical control of the CCP (presumably enabling wiretapping and censorship on-demand) to be able to offer those services to iPhone users in China. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/25/18020508/how-china-compl...

Which makes Apple & Google (and other tech companies) complicit with the CCP behavior for the sake of the almighty $$.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#319

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #244
babesh wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it would be ethical to abandon their customers over this. Apparently religious freedom isn’t where you draw the line. What other rights are you willing to abandon?

Also those mostly aren’t their customers in Google’s case. Their customers are mostly the advertisers.

Ok then, let’s say users.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#320

Post by sneak »

jjav wrote: post #272
d1zzy wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come would that not happen? Apps come from somewhere and they are installed on someone's platform. The government can simply ask the provider of those apps to stop providing them and/or the provider of the platform to stop allowing for them to be installed. Your only choice then is to comply or stop doing business in that country. So the only reasonable complaint I could see against these companies now is "maybe…

> provider of the platform to stop allowing for them to be installed The fact that this is possible (worse on iOS) is the architectural and political tragedy of these app stores. A "provider of the platform" should have no power to have any say in what apps are installed on a user-owned device, in which case it would be impossible to coerce them into banning this or that.

> A "provider of the platform" should have no power to have any say in what apps are installed on a user-owned device, in which case it would be impossible to coerce them into banning this or that.

What if end users who buy the device WANT the manufacturer to have that power, to keep their device malware- and spyware-free?

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