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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#291

Post by dzmien »

snoshy wrote: post #266
pas wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive? When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

I am not sure if it is that simple, and I think companies have little choice but to be greedy, because if they choose not to be greedy, another greedier company is all but guaranteed to prevail. I suppose it could be argued that companies the size of Apple and Google are not bound by the same constraints as smaller companies. But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their existing customers? What about all the people who would be deprived of Apple and Google products/services?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#292

Post by stale2002 »

jmull wrote: post #268
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suggesting that Apple and Google should not be in position to decide what users run on their apps. On Android, it is rather close to it (sans push notifications, which are not available without Google Play services, and without which background apps running is somewhat problematic), but Apple is a completely opposite.

Not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so. I don't dispute that Apple and Google do gatekeeping. They do. We can discuss the pros and cons of it. But that is simply not issue here.

> The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so.

In general, we do not see governments doing this, no.

For example, I am sure that some people in Pakistan own intel/windows computers.

But Pakistan is not making laws that require every single intel/windows computer to block certain content, at the hardware level of the PC.

That is something that seems pretty difficult to enforce on all PCs.

If phones worked more like PCs, then it is likely that they would enjoy similar benefits.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#293

Post by babesh »

shadowgovt wrote: post #284
babesh wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a load of bullshit. Google tried to get back into China (see Project Dragonfly). Did China change the offending laws in the meantime? How are those Tianamen Square searches doing in China on those Apple phones? What kind of person or entity hides under the pretense that it’s the law and you have to always follow it? Nuremberg trials defense? Separate but equal? South Africa anyone? All I have to do is to do i…

It's important not to run so fast from 1984 that one runs into Snow Crash. If corporations are setting morality apart from the law, they become another authority. Then we have a different set of problems; at least in some countries, the government authority is elected. CEOs aren't elected by the people, and the emperor has nothing on the whims of Jeff Bezos or Jack Dorsey.

Both are problematic and both are occurring right now.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#294

Post by babesh »

unethical_ban wrote: post #277
babesh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic is shit. Who decides on what are lies? Are they perfect and unbiased? It’s far more than election results deniers that are being banned nowadays. If you ban lies then you should ban astrologists, most politicians, flat earthers, indeed most people. This isn’t a thought experiment. This has been happened throughout history. The Church imprisoned Galileo for saying that the Earth goes around the Sun. McCarth…

Watch that slope, it's slippery!

Yup, and we are going down it right now.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#295

Post by FriedrichN »

jmull wrote: post #135
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

If there is no gatekeeper, there is no one for Pakistan to pressure. That is the problem with gatekeepers, it's a single point of failure.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#296

Post by stale2002 »

FlownScepter wrote: post #46
centimeter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pakistan only gets to decide what they can practically influence. Apple and Google could design their phones in a way where it’s not possible for Pakistan to wholesale prevent people from using a piece of software.

At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This attitude pervades tech-inclined folk's discussions of politics, as if the Internet is somehow above the laws and culture of the places where it operates, especially with regard to the global south. Just because you either don't comprehend or don't respect a given culture enough to learn about it, doesn't mean it no longer applies to you.…

> At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan.

This isn't really supported by how other similar devices are treated.

We aren't seeing all PCs having hardware level censorship functionality inserted into it, as the behest of governments.

The idea that a country would stop all phones from being purchased, if phones simply worked similarly to PCs, sounds about as unlikely as a country blocking the purchase of "unlocked" PCs, which we see is not currently happening.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#297

Post by pknerd »

babesh wrote: post #172
avianlyric wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is your point?

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Then they will have to leave entire subcontinent and middle east.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#298

Post by loveistheanswer »

1024core wrote: post #200

This only applies to Pakistan. It isn't Google's or Apple's place to fix Pakistan's problems. A company has to obey the laws of the country they are operating in. Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?

Let's go one step further:

Suppose there's an app which is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, and that is in accordance with the law in the US (as it was not too long ago).

Should Google allow that app, since it's in accordance with the law and it makes them money, or should they consider if the law is unethical according to their own moral compass?

Perhaps this hypothetical question is erroneous, as it assumes a trillion dollar corporation would be more concerned with ethics and morals than providing infinite growth for their shareholders.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#299

Post by rcoveson »

jmull wrote: post #288
rcoveson wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confident we only disagree on the threshold of injustice. Surely there is a point where exiting the market is the only moral thing to do? Or does the responsibility-proportional-to-power argument justify subjecting your business to literally any law? To me, this law is past the threshold where it is morally acceptable to continue to do business in that nation. For you, that threshold is somewhere else, but I'm co…

> Surely there is a point where exiting the market is the only moral thing to do? Agreed. But I don't think this case is it. Mainly because exiting does pretty much nothing to prevent Pakistani persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslims. It's like you see a bully picking on a kid every day at the park and you just decide to go to a different park. Maybe you feel a little better about it yourself, but it doesn't help the kid. T…

> It's like you see a bully picking on a kid every day at the park and you just decide to go to a different park. Maybe you feel a little better about it yourself, but it doesn't help the kid.

I think this is a really good analogy if you flesh it out completely.

Eve is bullying Alice, and says that anybody who plays with Alice will be chased from the park. Alice asks to play with Bob, and now Bob has a choice to make.

Bob thinks, "If I play with Alice, it won't last long. Eve will force me from the park, and Alice won't get to play anyway. And I won't be able to play either! At least, not at this park."

So Bob decides the right thing to do is to continue playing with the other kids at the park, but never Alice.

I think Bob made the wrong call here. The alternative was not merely "deciding to go to a different park", it was standing up for Alice. The cause of his departure, and the fact that it was Eve that forced him, is important. It's not just Bob who "feels a little better about himself", it's Alice.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#300

Post by michaelmrose »

djrogers wrote: post #213
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Apple is in a self imposed category of only legit legal way to install software on users devices and is thus morally keeping users from practicing their religion.

The logical thing is to make Apple decide between servicing the entire American and European market and caving to repressive regimes.

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