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U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

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Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#91
post #86

Ironically, this law would give tech companies vastly more power to censor and police online speech. As soon as tech companies are made legally liable for any speech that occurs on their platform, they would be both legally and morally justified in using draconian measures to preemptively block activities that could expose them to liability. For example, banning all controversial hashtags, automatically banning anyon…

I don't think this is ironic. It seems to me the intention is to encourage tech companies to be more selective in what they allow.

I do not agree with your claim that "they would be both legally and morally justified in using draconian measures". Here's why:

1. Morality is different from legality, especially in this context

2. Draconian means "excessively harsh and severe". I don't think the bill if passed would provide protections for companies that are "excessively harsh or severe". These companies still operate in a broader context that includes market forces, public perception, and internal leadership in addition to regulation.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#92
post #86

Ironically, this law would give tech companies vastly more power to censor and police online speech. As soon as tech companies are made legally liable for any speech that occurs on their platform, they would be both legally and morally justified in using draconian measures to preemptively block activities that could expose them to liability. For example, banning all controversial hashtags, automatically banning anyon…

This is absolutely the truth. I've talked with attorneys about what this would mean for my side hustle (podcast hosting) and their advice is to have tools for doing exhaustive moderation ready to go. The risk of being sued for user content is large enough to be business-ending for startups of my size.

I sincerely hope that this is just political theater that never manifests into law. Section 230 is a blessing to the modern internet which goes wildly unappreciated, and is terribly misunderstood by the folks who benefit from it most.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with the case that originally prompted Section 230? It would be a pretty serious problem if hedge funds could sue your ISP for letting you say bad things about them. (In fact, without Section 230, ad companies could sue YCombinator for letting you make this very comment.)

I am familiar, and Section 230 was not the answer. And yes, normally anyone can sue anyone, I'm not sure why tech companies deserve to be magically immune to this.

Is there a better answer you have in mind? I don't think it's a question of tech companies deserving or not deserving immunity - the question is how we can avoid a locked-down sphere of Internet discourse where it's impossible for the average person to say bad things about powerful organizations.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#94
post #86

Ironically, this law would give tech companies vastly more power to censor and police online speech. As soon as tech companies are made legally liable for any speech that occurs on their platform, they would be both legally and morally justified in using draconian measures to preemptively block activities that could expose them to liability. For example, banning all controversial hashtags, automatically banning anyon…

This is absolutely the truth. I've talked with attorneys about what this would mean for my side hustle (podcast hosting) and their advice is to have tools for doing exhaustive moderation ready to go. The risk of being sued for user content is large enough to be business-ending for startups of my size. I sincerely hope that this is just political theater that never manifests into law. Section 230 is a blessing to the…

No, this may be your prediction of what may happen. Please don't abuse the term "absolutely", particularly with an uncertain prediction.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#95

When I was young, I realized that eventually the problems of the real world would catch up to the internet. It was in the mid-2000s that I realized a well-staffed company, with people working on problems for 8+ hours a day, for years, could always outpace individuals. Just as has been true with all human affairs: better-resourced groups can overpower lesser-resourced groups. It has been true for years now that the pr…

Our American founders, who are so venerated as the architects of the country's acceptance of free speech, were not too keen on an unfettered discourse of the masses. Coming from a time when the public’s reach was limited by expensive distribution methods and a lack of literacy, the assumption was that this free speech they proposed would be mostly limited to learned men like themselves. This similar assumption was initially made for the internet, who’s culture was primarily defined by tech savvy, college graduates. The internet was an "island of sanity" because it was limited to a relatively small group of likeminded people choosing to use it. What is happening now is the success of democracy, not its failure. For all its fanfare within our culture—very few countries, organizations, institutions have supported true democracy and its unlikely they’ll start now.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#96
post #86

Ironically, this law would give tech companies vastly more power to censor and police online speech. As soon as tech companies are made legally liable for any speech that occurs on their platform, they would be both legally and morally justified in using draconian measures to preemptively block activities that could expose them to liability. For example, banning all controversial hashtags, automatically banning anyon…

This is absolutely the truth. I've talked with attorneys about what this would mean for my side hustle (podcast hosting) and their advice is to have tools for doing exhaustive moderation ready to go. The risk of being sued for user content is large enough to be business-ending for startups of my size. I sincerely hope that this is just political theater that never manifests into law. Section 230 is a blessing to the…

Lawyers tend to be risk averse, and this is for good reason. A good lawyer will probably help you think about negative consequences.

In my opinion, a great lawyer will additionally discuss risks and the costs of mitigating them, particularly given a limited budget.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#98
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience with HN, many people do not understand even the basics of 1A. Like many people, they have fundamental misconceptions, and they repeat them over and over. To take just one example on this particular comment page:, I wonder if the person writing this comment understands 1A: "While this looks good on paper, it would severely hinder free speech on these platforms if not already."

That comment makes no mention of the first amendment.

The above comment is obviously true, but how much does it advance the conversation? Not much in my opinion, but I'll try to build on it. I'll try to unpack what I think you were getting at.

While it is obvious that the comment doesn't say "First Amendment", that is not the end of the matter. When people talk, it is important to think about what they mean in a particular context. That comment very much relates to 1A, whether it uses a particular phrase or not, because it exists in this context of discussion about a bill talking about government regulation, which very much ties into 1A.

Let me circle back. My experience here on HN after trying to have substantive 1A discussions is, frankly, disappointing. Perhaps I thought that people smart enough to program computers would be somewhat good at unpacking logical arguments based on a complex legal history. I've found mixed evidence for this. Instead, I often see:

* Many people are simply unskilled communicators.

* Many people are unnecessarily pedantic -- meaning they make a tiny irrelevant point but miss the huge issues in play and don't connect with others as people

* Many people lack the tools or willingness to clarify, learn, and understand.

* In terms of subject matter, the basics of 1A are not well understood. Instead, dogmatic assertions tend to be used.

* FUD and slippery slope arguments are prevalent.

* Balanced discussions of pros and cons are few and far between.

* Even if the basics of 1A are understood, the authors often do not do a good job of formulating their questions in a way that signals their understanding and clarifies their question.

These are unfortunate patterns I've seen. This is why I shared some basic information to ground the conversation.

You may call me a critic, skeptic, or cynic. However, I think I'm being fairly accurate as to the quality of intellectual discussion around 1A on Hacker News.

So much of the 'legal' conversation I see here on HN would be laughed out of even an undergraduate law class. We can and should do better. It is not for lack of intellectual reasoning ability. Other things seem to be getting in the way: dogma, fixation on narrow things to the detriment of the broader context, ego, unexamined rigid beliefs, a lack of historical awareness, insular worldview, etc.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am familiar, and Section 230 was not the answer. And yes, normally anyone can sue anyone, I'm not sure why tech companies deserve to be magically immune to this.

Is there a better answer you have in mind? I don't think it's a question of tech companies deserving or not deserving immunity - the question is how we can avoid a locked-down sphere of Internet discourse where it's impossible for the average person to say bad things about powerful organizations.

I guess theoretically, companies would either have unmoderated user content, or completely sanitized user content that goes under human review. Little to nothing inbetween.

A big grey area seems like websites that give users tools to moderate content and let them handle it. Not sure what the courts would think of that.

Re: U.S. Senators propose limiting liability shield for social media platforms

#100

If we’re going to adjust 230, it’s a perfect chance to favor smaller platforms. e.g. if you are under a certain size, you get to keep full 230 protections. The size and power of these companies needs to be addressed.

So all I need to do is have a bot register n+1 accounts, then I can legally force them to publish whatever I want them to or else they have to go under to avoid legal liability? Neat.
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