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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#131

Post by username90 »

Veen wrote: post #96
u801e wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

> Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA It's a minor quibble, but England does have an established national Church, so it's not entirely secular in the way the US is. 26 CofE Bishops sit in the House of Lords, the Lords Spiritual. The head of state is also the head of the Church.

Yet England feel way more secular than USA in practice, given how much Christianity seems to matter in US politics.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#132

Post by LeifCarrotson »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #85
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

I wouldn’t say that I’m defending the practice. It’s a bad decision and I wish Pakistan wouldn’t censor these apps. But it really does seem like the responsibility lies with Pakistan here. The article suggests Google’s trying hard to keep these apps up, and has indeed kept some up despite government pressure. At the end of the day, their options to resist legal demands are limited, and it’s hard for me to see an argu…

> At the end of the day, their options to resist legal demands are limited

They're really not. Google is not based in Pakistan, and they don't have offices or datacenters in Pakistan.

Why should they take _global_ action against developers who are _located in the US_ on the request of someone who does not have jurisdiction over them?

It's interesting how this plays out in reverse to the typical copyright fights - people violating US intellectual property law in Pakistan (or wherever) are often litigated under those US laws; here they're litigating against Americans based on Pakistani laws.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#133

Post by username90 »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

Easy solution is to not have monolithic gatekeepers like Apple or Google that can be pressured into doing stuff like this. A website is way harder to shut down than an appstore app, so normalizing appstores is a huge problem.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#134

Post by [deleted] »

gadders wrote: post #77
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

[deleted]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#135

Post by jmull »

FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh

The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google.

An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan.

There are arguments against gatekeeping tech companies, but this isn't one of them.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#136

Post by vmception »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

Pakistan has a constitution.

Appstores operate in Pakistan and comply with their government.

There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#137

Post by baybal2 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #104
gadders wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

And, increasingly, their own banking and internet routing infrastructure as well.

FYI, Pakistan's biggest banks are owned by Ahmadis. Quite a number in India too.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#138

Post by fleshdaddy »

sofixa wrote: post #89
zo1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are wisening up. Tinfoil hat me says they're replacing "blasphemy laws" with more politically palatable yet more vague "Hate speech" laws that are ridiculously loose and can be applied how they see fit, including prosecuting blasphemy-like criticism of Religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country#So...

I don't see anything ridiculously loose about that law: > No person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful,be harmful or to incite harm, promote or propagate hatred. [65] > The "prohibited grounds" include race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, eth…

Honesty I think you could probably a make a case for any insult falling under that law.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#139

Post by username90 »

ur-whale wrote: post #45
aNoob7000 wrote: post #12

I'm worried about the future of computing devices. With Apple and Google going with the walled garden approach, What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal?

By definition, in most places, govts have a monopoly on physical violence (i.e. : they have the most guns). So, to answer your question that starts with "What's to stop any government", the answer is : nothing.

Governments have mostly failed to stop websites. Moving from websites to appstore apps gives governments more power. It also gives giant corporations more power. So it is a bad development if you fear giant corporations or governments.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#140

Post by sbmthakur »

margalabargala wrote: post #86
Arun2009 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Islam. The whole issue seems to be an internal argument among the Muslim community- so Islam is a necessary precondition for this problem, as it's the subject matter of the issue, but not the causative agent.

It's no longer an internal argument among Muslims. Laws of various countries do not identify Ahmadiyyas as non-Muslims.
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