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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#101
post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

Yes, it's unfortunately not that unusual in the UK. An Ahmadi shopkeeper was killed in 2016 by a Sunni taxi driver motivated by the shopkeeper's "heresy" [0]. A London mosque got into trouble last year for distributing 'kill Ahmadis' leaflets [1]

[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahme...

[1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47654430

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#102
post #71
post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

Is it ok to sell weapons of war to a country engaging in ethnic cleansing, and if not - why not?

After all, the country is allowed to decide it's own rules and laws. If it decides ethnic cleansing is allowable, we should follow that right?

Of course not! Just because a country decides some action is legal doesn't make it moral or ethical - and knowingly aiding an unethical act is itself unethical! We do and should absolutely shun and punish countries engaging in things like ethnic cleansing - even if they're assisting a country that has deemed it legal.

Why in the world would religious prosecution be some kind of special case?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#103
post #96
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

> Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA It's a minor quibble, but England does have an established national Church, so it's not entirely secular in the way the US is. 26 CofE Bishops sit in the House of Lords, the Lords Spiritual. The head of state is also the head of the Church.

It is so fascinating how fascinated all these Germanic kingdoms in Western Europe were with emulating the Romans

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#104
post #77
post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

And, increasingly, their own banking and internet routing infrastructure as well.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#105
post #89
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are wisening up. Tinfoil hat me says they're replacing "blasphemy laws" with more politically palatable yet more vague "Hate speech" laws that are ridiculously loose and can be applied how they see fit, including prosecuting blasphemy-like criticism of Religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country#So...

I don't see anything ridiculously loose about that law: > No person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful,be harmful or to incite harm, promote or propagate hatred. [65] > The "prohibited grounds" include race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, eth…

What does "belief" mean? Is calling someone an idiot for believing that earth is flat hate speech?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#106
post #71
post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

Being secular doesn't preclude governments from engaging in nearly equivalent behavior with regard to other issues.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#107
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

The list of countries in that article also includes Belarus, Belgium and Bulgaria, where the common factor seems to have been Islamophobia instead.

That's an issue affects all muslims in those countries and many non-muslims who may appear that way.

Islam does have a huge internal debate over which branch is correct that has never been settled. To not accept this group of people is unique in Islamic countries because they have been using this as a weapon against minorities by creating separate laws. By extending to other muslims this is more about trying to make them lower members of society with less rights and an excuse for mistreatment without breaking religious morals. You are allowed to do things to non muslims that wouldn't be acceptable to a muslims.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#108
post #103
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA It's a minor quibble, but England does have an established national Church, so it's not entirely secular in the way the US is. 26 CofE Bishops sit in the House of Lords, the Lords Spiritual. The head of state is also the head of the Church.

It is so fascinating how fascinated all these Germanic kingdoms in Western Europe were with emulating the Romans

Until Henry VIII's divorce of Catherine of Aragon, England had the same church as Rome.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#109
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This attitude pervades tech-inclined folk's discussions of politics, as if the Internet is somehow above the laws and culture of the places where it operates, especially with regard to the global south. Just because you either don't comprehend or don't respect a given culture enough to learn about it, doesn't mean it no longer applies to you.…

Not available for purchase != not available. I understand the point you're trying to make: technologists undervalue national sovereignty when it's from a non-Western / less-democratic country. But try to appreciate parent's point as well: that there are technical qualities about the internet that make it censorship-resistant.

I don't think that point resonates nearly as well under a less-democratic country. There's a romanticism that's applied to the Internet as though it can buck any trend or speak truth to power in a way that other prior media hasn't or can't, and there is some truth to that? But that wasn't because of some innate superiority; it was because it developed primarily in the West, where freedom to express oneself is the default, with authorities only really stepping in when needed. This ethos has followed through the Internet's spread to other parts of the world, where this is not always the case, and the reaction in general from companies especially borders on pearl clutching. "What do you mean we have to respect unjust laws and the arbitrary decisions of some banana republic?"

Yes, you do. Because within the borders of that republic, regardless of how banana it might be, it is the Government and it has power. I feel like this is the penultimate expression of privilege for Westerners, to find out that the madman running around in tanks and aviator sunglasses in that part of the world, you know, over there, actually does have direct and indisputable power over MILLIONS of people and in all likelihood, is probably killing tons of them. Like, we know that, but we don't understand what that means, not really. How could we? I find it hard to conceive of something further from my reality.

And ultimately, for all the legitimate strengths the Internet has to fulfill the dream of these folks, in terms of speaking truth to power, ultimately, Governments can turn it off if needed, as we've seen, if it becomes too much of a problem.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#110
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think once they got to the point of forming an actual union (which, at Google, has a historical risk to job security) the "slactivism" potshots became inarguably unwarranted.

They call themselves a union, but until they start doing union things, some skepticism is warranted.

Agreed - I think skepticism is usually warranted, and there are unions that are very active in doing "union things" in America that do more harm than good to the working class. I just took issue with the "slactivism" complaint specifically, because by starting the union the employees involved put themselves at risk of being fired. To me, continuing to call that slactivism is moving the goalposts to an unfair degree.
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