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Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

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Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#111

Post by masklinn »

danenania wrote: post #106
masklinn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except for the guarantee of uniqueness. There are a few more actually: gold is one of the least putrescible materials out there (it's one of the least reactive elements available and as one of the royal metals very few acids can attack it), it has a distinctive look, and it has a very high density (most denser metals were only discovered in or after the 19th century, and are generally more valuable) which makes it…

"And nowadays we have the opposite issue: gold mining output declines, and is unable to follow the value growth of the world itself. This is one of the reasons why most countries moved first to fractional gold standards and then to convertible currency." This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of m…

> This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of money goes up, and people simply use smaller units for exchange.

The result is exactly the same, you're just making the whole process more painful by rebadging money.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#112

Post by weavejester »

cheez wrote: post #43
iqster wrote: post #25

The way I understand bitcoins might be flawed but would certainly appreciate clarification ... My problem with bit coins is that early people who start mining have a greater advantage than later ones. While that's not the classic definition of a Ponzi scheme (in the classic definition, payouts at each round are funded by new participants), it is a feature bitcoin shares with them. If someone started mining bitcoin wh…

My solution is to expire the BTC to force circulation.

I'm not sure how you expect that to work. How would expiring bitcoins increase circulation?

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#113

Post by daniel-cussen »

vladd wrote: post #6

Any system of checks and balances will have its price. Look at what we do with gold: we dig it from a hole in Africa, we transport it in other countries, we dug holes or build vaults and throw it there. Like Warren Buffett said, it has no utility, if Martians were to look at the process they would scratch their heads. Except for the guarantee of uniqueness. Which is one of the most powerful invariants against corrupt…

Martians may also use gold as a store of wealth.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#114

Post by nazgulnarsil »

kragen wrote: post #103
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. the amount of wealth that would be destroyed is beyond all measure.

Wealth consists of things like cured diseases, tasty and nourishing meals, being dry when it rains, and seeing the people you love as often as you want; and the resources and skills we use to create those other kinds of wealth, such as antibiotics, bread mold, spices, beans, houses, corrugated steel, iron ore, blast furnaces, airplanes, kerosene, and CAD software. Gesell's scheme does not destroy any of those things;…

it was reported to be beneficial by its proponents. what a surprise. call me back when you have a control group.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#115

Post by [deleted] »

aero142 wrote: post #107
danenania wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And nowadays we have the opposite issue: gold mining output declines, and is unable to follow the value growth of the world itself. This is one of the reasons why most countries moved first to fractional gold standards and then to convertible currency." This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of m…

Saying it is just a ruse for inflation is not being honest. Many, though not all, economists believe that deflation causes money to be more valuable tomorrow than today, which leads to over saving which leads to unnaturally low demand. It's not helpful to act as though there is no debate on the subject. I'm sure there are other problems as well.

[deleted]

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#116

Post by [deleted] »

masklinn wrote: post #111
danenania wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And nowadays we have the opposite issue: gold mining output declines, and is unable to follow the value growth of the world itself. This is one of the reasons why most countries moved first to fractional gold standards and then to convertible currency." This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of m…

> This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of money goes up, and people simply use smaller units for exchange. The result is exactly the same, you're just making the whole process more painful by rebadging money.

[deleted]

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#117

Post by masklinn »

ghshephard wrote: post #110
masklinn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"real value" is not very clear a concept. Gold does not have much intrinsic value (not actually correct anymore, in our modern world gold is used quite a bit in industrial contexts): apart from being shiny, before the 19th century there wasn't much it could be used for. The vast majority of its value was extrinsic and pretty much arbitrary, in its use as part of monetary exchange systems. The same can be said of diam…

The major difference, of course, is that diamonds are not rare, can be industrially counterfeited, and are easily damaged. Diamonds, in some way, are the "anti-gold." There is a great game-theoretic reason for why something as completely worthless as diamonds make great engagement rings though: They are something expensive to the male (so he can't repeat the process of proposing very often) - but worthless to the fem…

> The major difference, of course, is that diamonds are not rare, can be industrially counterfeited, and are easily damaged.

Gold is not rare either. Please re-read my comment, it's about intrinsic and extrinsic value, especially across history. Before modern industrial usages, diamond was all but useless (even worse than gold, if anything) and all of its valuation was extrinsic.

And much like gold's, diamond's intrinsic value has risen in modern times with industrial uses.

> Diamonds, in some way, are the "anti-gold."

Most definitely not. If you want anti-gold, you should look at water instead.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#118

Post by michael_dorfman »

palish wrote: post #69
michael_dorfman wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top story for most of the day yesterday was about Bitcoin, actually. And I'm not crying "dupe"-- it's not that people are re-posting an old article with evergreen content. Instead, people are having the same conversation over and over again, making the same points, repeatedly. I don't think that's a good thing.

If the conversation points are correct, then there's nothing wrong with making them. As something like Bitcoin becomes more popular, people will naturally have questions and concerns. Should they search for the answer before asking? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter if they don't. People are free to downvote them for asking. But they don't, and the resulting conversation becomes interesting for those who haven't se…

You've been a member of HN almost as long as I have. Haven't you noticed the destructive effects meta-discussion has on articles? If so, why are you perpetuating it?

Because I've also noticed the pernicious effect of waves of discussions like this that never die. Articles about Bitcoin (and other similar topics) come to dominate the front page for a while, and crowd out other, more interesting content.

I don't usually involve myself in meta-discussion, but this seemed like such an egregious example that I felt I ought to speak up.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#119

Post by DavidSJ »

bdhe wrote: post #96
api wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not quantum-hard. When quantum computing reaches a certain threshold, bitcoin will lose its uniqueness and collapse. There are post-quantum algorithms that are computable on ordinary computers, but they're still under research and they'd make Bitcoin's data set considerably larger.

Bitcoin is not quantum-hard. When quantum computing reaches a certain threshold, bitcoin will lose its uniqueness and collapse. Could you elaborate which aspect of bitcoin has efficient quantum algorithms? The proof-of-work system requires you to invert hashes and quantum algorithms only give you a quadratic speed up (brute force takes time O(\sqrt{size of range}) rather than O(size of range)). Right now there is no…

Could you elaborate which aspect of bitcoin has efficient quantum algorithms?

BitCoin uses public key cryptography for its digital signatures. That in turn relies on the difficulty of factoring large numbers, for which there are efficient quantum algorithms.

Re: Resources are being utterly and completely wasted on mining bitcoins

#120

Post by danenania »

masklinn wrote: post #111
danenania wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And nowadays we have the opposite issue: gold mining output declines, and is unable to follow the value growth of the world itself. This is one of the reasons why most countries moved first to fractional gold standards and then to convertible currency." This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of m…

> This is just a ruse used by governments as a pretext for inflation. It isn't necessary for money supply to 'keep up' with growth. As demand increases, the value of money goes up, and people simply use smaller units for exchange. The result is exactly the same, you're just making the whole process more painful by rebadging money.

There is no need to 'rebadge' money. That is the function of prices.
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