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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#311

Post by rahimnathwani »

thesimon wrote: post #208
rahimnathwani wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Healthy SF medical coverage is also mandatory" I don't think Healthy SF coverage is mandatory. From what I've read, businesses have two other options: provide a regular healthcare plan, or set aside a fund to reimburse employee healthcare costs as they arise. Restaurants usually go for that last option. "usually passed onto patrons as a 4% fee on their bill, though this isn’t dictated by statute" I find the last par…

> Restaurants usually go for that last option. So restaurants basically run their own health insurance company?

No. They just have to spend at least a certain amount. They don't have to spend more than that, even if employees need more due to their specific health needs.

More info here: https://sfgov.org/olse/sites/default/files/2021%20HCSO%20Pos...

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#312

Post by 93po »

leetcrew wrote: post #304
ornornor wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips even go to the manager and owner very often.

this may be true, but it is definitely illegal. the owner can keep a tip if directly given to them by a customer (eg, while serving a table), but they may not participate in any sort of tip pool. of course, "illegal" is very different from "doesn't happen" in the restaurant biz. the owner of the place I worked would often reach into the tip jar to pay himself back when we made mistakes.

I think virtually every restaurant or bar has fine print that any tip over a certain dollar amount goes to the owners. The excess does, that is, and the staff keeps the part of the tip that is under the threshold. It's usually somewhere between $1k-$5k.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#313

Post by P_I_Staker »

globular-toast wrote: post #226
imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

I have the same problem with any "bonuses". Everyone who is paid a bonus inevitably starts thinking about it as part of their income. Banks don't help this as many of them will take bonuses into account when supplying loans. But your employer doesn't think of bonuses this way. Your employer thinks of a bonus as part of your pay they can take away at a moment's notice for any reason at all. Many of them will try to pu…

Wouldn't that be the point of bonuses? It's not inappropriate in all cases, if it lets the org pay you more now without committing to do so forever, even if the market turns around. Otherwise you have to deal with painful cuts, or even people losing their jobs. Depends on the circumstances, and I agree it's bad to use as a wage suppression tool. Would you rather not have the money, so it doesn't feel like anything's being "taken away from you"?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#314

Post by ddingus »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #239
ryanbrunner wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not from North America? It's more or less impossible to find a restaurant that doesn't have that integrated on their POS systems in the U.S. or Canada. Honestly, 10/15/20 are fairly conservative suggestions, I feel like I see them start at 15% pretty much all of the time.

I’ve always seen a “No Tip” option in the US. And if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t patronize them. 10% for a cashier giving you your order is insane. Am I supposed to be giving a 10% tax to all of my cashiers now?

Yes, me too. This one did not gave it, though a button did skip. Un indicated.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#315

Post by rahimnathwani »

boulos wrote: post #198
rahimnathwani wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Healthy SF medical coverage is also mandatory" I don't think Healthy SF coverage is mandatory. From what I've read, businesses have two other options: provide a regular healthcare plan, or set aside a fund to reimburse employee healthcare costs as they arise. Restaurants usually go for that last option. "usually passed onto patrons as a 4% fee on their bill, though this isn’t dictated by statute" I find the last par…

Good point, I updated my comment with an edit: Healthy SF isn’t mandated, providing health care is (and the very limited Healthy SF coverage is basically the cheapest option, so most restaurants do that). On the “dictated by statute”, I actually mentioned that because so many people figured it was! Much like sales tax, it’s often on the bill as if it’s a thing that the city has specified and that it was a city progra…

"and the very limited Healthy SF coverage is basically the cheapest option, so most restaurants do that"

If someone works only a few hours per week, the 'Healthy SF' coverage can cost more than the minimum employer spend. So it's not always the cheapest option.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#316

Post by gambiting »

__s wrote: post #275
gambiting wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" So if you're going to support the "no tips" agenda you'll have to put in the additional effort of looking up wages to decide Starbucks is better than Tim Horton's" I just....don't see why. I honestly don't get an argument why. When you get a plumber do you check how much they earn per hour and decide accordingly? Like seriously, it's the biggest scam the restaurant industry has managed to pull off - they are making…

Sure, but reality is that minimum wage laws exclude waiter positions on the basis of tipping. So if you're anti tipping you should at least make sure you're avoiding places paying less than minimum wage. & you can't know just by looking at the menu I worked ice cream vending ( https://serprex.github.io/w/Ice%20Cream%20Biker if someone wants to read a very dry recount of my first day) where half my income was from tip…

>>So if you're anti tipping you should at least make sure you're avoiding places paying less than minimum wage. & you can't know just by looking at the menu

But....why should I care about this as a customer at all. Again, I'm baffled how did the responsibility for the wellbeing and income of restaurant workers has been shifted to the customers. The employer should be responsible, not me. It literally doesn't work like this anywhere else. As a customer I also don't check if there are rats in the kitchen or if the chef is pouring grease into storm drains, yet I'm expected to be responsible for the salary of employees?

>>Here's a cbc article on the topic where a no tips experiment failed: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/caf%C3%A9-linnea-all...

So I've tried to see why it failed:

"After several months working at Café Linnea, he also found he was making less money than if he were receiving tips.

"I think that the wage ended up working out to be like ... an average of what one might expect to make on a slow night, but it didn't adequately make up for the busy nights.""

So sure, people who benefit from the broken system complain if it's being changed. What a surprise. Of course people who happen to make really good money on tips will complain about removal of tips. Shocker.

Somehow elsewhere in the world tips are just not expected and restaurants still manage to hire and retain staff.

Another quote: "Fox said the no-tipping policy meant management couldn't end up sending servers home early on slow nights."

And....? How is this given as a downside?

And another:

""My employer paid for less than half of my total earnings," he said. "Most of the burden of my earnings was on the customer and thus didn't have to be reflected in prices."

Café Linnea never increased prices enough to make up for the higher staff wages, he said."

Like, I could have told you the outcome of this "experiment" before they even started.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#317

Post by reader_mode »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #274
reader_mode wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can trivially judge the necessity of service but unless I am an expert in the domain I cannot judge the quality of service and very often the entire point of the service is to outsource expertise. The entire point of this service is to improve your subjective experience - if you can't evaluate that then you probably need a legal guardian.

I can judge whether I had a good time, but is it the waiter's time things took long or was somebody in the kitchen slow or some other customer holding them up? Is the stain on the table the fault from the waiter not replacing everything or the boss's policy? etc. And if the food and my company is great even the worst waiter has little impact in that. The waiter is the face of the establishment, but there are many thi…

>The waiter is the face of the establishment, but there are many things out of the control of even the best server.

Which gives them the incentive to kick things off in the kitchen, and good places share tips with kitchen staff for that reason.

It's their job to make the experience pleasant for me - I don't care how - tip reflects how good of a job they did.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#318

Post by johannes1234321 »

reader_mode wrote: post #317
johannes1234321 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can judge whether I had a good time, but is it the waiter's time things took long or was somebody in the kitchen slow or some other customer holding them up? Is the stain on the table the fault from the waiter not replacing everything or the boss's policy? etc. And if the food and my company is great even the worst waiter has little impact in that. The waiter is the face of the establishment, but there are many thi…

>The waiter is the face of the establishment, but there are many things out of the control of even the best server. Which gives them the incentive to kick things off in the kitchen, and good places share tips with kitchen staff for that reason. It's their job to make the experience pleasant for me - I don't care how - tip reflects how good of a job they did.

They can do as much as they want. It's the owner's responsibility, thought. The owner makes the decisions. The waiter is the underpaid person, which will be replaced if they complain too much.

If I don't like a place I let the owner know and reduce my spending. If I like the place I tell the owner and spend more.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#319

Post by ddingus »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #231
ddingus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently visited a place where it was forced hard. If one did not know the POS device, it is baked in. And, the cashier tells the customer to go ahead and pay, then walks away to fetch their order, leaving them no obvious option other than to select 10, 15 or 20 percent, or the awkward position of asking how to manage the tip. I have not gone back. I tip, because of the system and the position the labor is in, but…

Are you not from North America? It's more or less impossible to find a restaurant that doesn't have that integrated on their POS systems in the U.S. or Canada. Honestly, 10/15/20 are fairly conservative suggestions, I feel like I see them start at 15% pretty much all of the time.

Depends on where you are. Yes, some places have them all over the place, though the vast majority of those have a no tip option, or a clearly indicated, "skip it" one, or button.

This one did not, and the interaction was planned so there is no opportunity for discussion, until after payment.

Other parts are still running all manner of those little POS terminals and they vary widely.

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