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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#301

Post by sokoloff »

madeofpalk wrote: post #298
sokoloff wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the enjoyment of the meal is predicated on good service though. Were the dishes served appropriately together or was one person’s salad served 5 minutes after the others? Were the courses paced appropriately? Were the drinks continually available? Were the main dishes served hot and together? I don’t need a server asking me every three minutes if everything is okay, but I do need them looking things over and…

These issues/questions you posed I have not experienced a noticeable difference in the aggregate across countries. There are good restaurants and bad restaurants in every country. I've found no correlation between what you've called service and tipping.

I wasn't drawing a connection to tipping. I was responding to your claim that you "want good food" but "don't particularly care about the service". It's impossible to entirely separate those in my opinion.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#302

Post by 0goel0 »

sampo wrote: post #184
0goel0 wrote: post #157

I don't think gig economy is working for the hard-working workers. We were doing Instacart delivery of groceries until we found out that they punished workers for demanding -- get this -- a livable wage and common decency [0][1]. Doordash has been caught stealing tips too [2]. All of them (Uber, Lyft etc) spent $200m to ensure that their workers would not get a living wage and health benefits [3]. With every passing…

> I don't think gig economy is working for the hard-working workers. We were doing Instacart delivery of groceries until we found out that they punished workers for demanding -- get this -- a livable wage and common decency [0][1]. Doordash has been caught stealing tips too [2]. All of them (Uber, Lyft etc) spent $200m to ensure that their workers would not get a living wage and health benefits [3]. You have only est…

Have they?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#303

Post by astura »

kitsune_ wrote: post #159
baby wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No tips = no theft and people actually get paid a wage that allows them to live well.

Why not both? Many people would still want to be able to tip for good service even if the employees are paid adequately by their employer, and most of those customers expect the employer to not touch that money at all.

Do you tip your doctor? Plumber? Daycare provider? Cashier? Mechanic? Resturant employees when there is counter service? Hotel housekeeper? Physical therapist? Batista? Cook? Walmart greeter? Ferry crew? Person who sold your tickets? Person who checked your ticket? Usher? Travel agent? Real estate agent? Brewery employee? Winery employee? Tour guide? Hardware store employee who makes you a key? Can driver? Medicab driver? City bus driver? Tour bus driver? Shuttle bus driver? Pharmacist? Pharmacy assistant?

It's extremely arbitrary which service employees "get" tips and which do not. Not everyone agrees who society "expects" to be tipped. The whole thing is absurd and profoundly unfair.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#304

Post by leetcrew »

ornornor wrote: post #211
bigmattystyles wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s even worse, in most places, tips are pooled and split evenly from what’s left over after you as the waiter tip out the bussers, bartenders, etc.. It makes for awful office politics.

Tips even go to the manager and owner very often.

this may be true, but it is definitely illegal. the owner can keep a tip if directly given to them by a customer (eg, while serving a table), but they may not participate in any sort of tip pool.

of course, "illegal" is very different from "doesn't happen" in the restaurant biz. the owner of the place I worked would often reach into the tip jar to pay himself back when we made mistakes.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#305

Post by leetcrew »

emptysongglass wrote: post #209
ben509 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of thei…

first of all, some people seem to dislike what is considered "good service" in the US, so let's call it "high touch" instead. tips are definitely a factor, but I think it's mostly just the US service/retail culture. even people who don't work tipped jobs are quite likely to ask you if you need help finding something if they are not busy.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#306

Post by ornornor »

leetcrew wrote: post #304
ornornor wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips even go to the manager and owner very often.

this may be true, but it is definitely illegal. the owner can keep a tip if directly given to them by a customer (eg, while serving a table), but they may not participate in any sort of tip pool. of course, "illegal" is very different from "doesn't happen" in the restaurant biz. the owner of the place I worked would often reach into the tip jar to pay himself back when we made mistakes.

> definitely illegal

haha, right. I've seen it done in most places I've worked when I was younger.

It's also illegal to clock people out during their shift when business is slow and yet many many places do it (because it's not enough to underpay and have employee rely on tips/charity from customers).

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#307

Post by leetcrew »

owlmirror wrote: post #210
efwfwef wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before, the only way to get out of the tipping culture is to stop tipping, and to continue to fight for a raised minimum wage. There's just no way around it, that's how some other countries got out of the tipping culture too. Shaming others who don't tip, and tipping when you go out, just contributes to the problem. If people understand that tipping is actually less of a thing, then the pressure will be…

I've worked as a waiter during my university time and tips were the best thing in the world for someone that did not need any real qualifications. My wage alone would have barely covered my expenses but with tips I paid all of my living costs and could put aside a bit for my future. It was a system I liked as an employee since even when there were few customers I had not to worry too much about getting laid off immed…

vouched this because it more or less matches my experience as a server. also want to second this point. do not "protest tipping" by refusing to tip employees who expect at least 15% to make ends meet. you're not making a point; you're just screwing over some random person.

also this ties into something that a lot of people don't seem to take into account when arguing for abolishing tipping. servers tend to like tipping. they don't enjoy the behavioral pressure, but they generally believe (correctly or not) that they make more money with tipping than they would in a counterfactual world without.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#308

Post by mschuster91 »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #299
mschuster91 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Having done a stint in barkeeping myself, it's not an easy job at all and there are many people who aren't cut for it. You have to be resilient enough to deal with all kinds of customers (the "Karen" meme is based in way too much reality) and their issues no matter how you are feeling yourself, it's a job that's quite ta…

So is picking fruits and vegetables. There is endless labor supply. If one doesn't work out you find another. It doesn't matter how hard people in the business think it is - it requires no credentials or education and there is no bar. That's just reality - I feel for people who have to work in that industry, but that's just life. Your second argument is just, not a real argument. It ignores why the minimum wage could…

> It doesn't matter how hard people in the business think it is - it requires no credentials or education and there is no bar. That's just reality

It is indeed. But still, someone working on a farm full time should be able to live off of that income. If the farm cannot pay a living wage, its products are too cheap. If the farm can't get more for their product because foreign competition undercuts them - well, that is precisely for what tariffs were invented, to protect domestic industries from wage dumping.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#309

Post by P_I_Staker »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #287
mschuster91 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are. This would be the case in a normal free market, but unfortunately the labor market is not a free market as people don't have the choice to work or not to work - they need to work to survive. As long as millions of people are out of a job, there will be millions desperate to work even for under minimum wage,…

This doesn't work. Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society. UBI could work because it redistributes the overly concentrated wealth gained from technology from the ultra rich across society. But raising the minimum wage does not.

No, it's "inherently low value" because most people can do it, and there will always be people desperate enough to do it. In fact they'll do worse jobs for less than a poverty wage, if given the opportunity. We could pack them into tiny boxes and send them underground to die of preventable diseases, then say they owe US money for the privilege. We enact labor laws because we can/have done this and find it distasteful. Being a server is not an "easy job". I wouldn't trade it for my developer job, even if the pay was equal.

The business and customer are getting an excellent deal because the model is anti-competitive and driven by human desperation and inequality. Which is why we have a minimum wage to limit the exploitation. The job isn't easy, and it is an important one. Restaurants for better, but mostly for worse, are staples of our society. They're valuable jobs.

These people are giving up their entire lives basically. All you have is time on this earth, and they're asked to give all of that for nothing, so you can live in the lap of luxury. I don't want to live in a world without bartenders and servers. I consider their work valuable, and think they deserve fair pay.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#310

Post by P_I_Staker »

mschuster91 wrote: post #293
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't work. Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society. UBI could work because it redistributes the overly concentrated wealth gained from technology from the ultra rich across society. But raising the minimum wage does not.

> Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Having done a stint in barkeeping myself, it's not an easy job at all and there are many people who aren't cut for it. You have to be resilient enough to deal with all kinds of customers (the "Karen" meme is based in way too much reality) and their issues no matter how you are feeling yourself, it's a job that's quite ta…

Yeah, I have to object to the OPs tone... maybe it was unintentional. Not only is OP wrong about servers (would you quit your corporate gig if the pay was the same? I 100% would not), but I actually don't want to live in a world without bartenders/servers. I'd hate to have my meals come out of a mailslot, or whatever.
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