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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to stop using Amazon products. The company is hugely exploitative in many ways - we should stop being surprised and just spend our money elsewhere.

Crimes need to be handled by the justice system. That is part of the a-solution for people that use Amazon and want to feel better about themselves. But when corporations commit crimes, the people inside responsible need to face justice, not just making whole the harm they have done. These are real crimes and need to be punished. A few people voting with their dollars does nothing.

Of course, but in my opinion you have no right to complain about how a company behaves if you're aware of how they behave and continue to give them your money.

In addition, a lot of the terrible stuff Amazon does is not illegal but still reprehensible.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are. This would be the case in a normal free market, but unfortunately the labor market is not a free market as people don't have the choice to work or not to work - they need to work to survive. As long as millions of people are out of a job, there will be millions desperate to work even for under minimum wage,…

This doesn't work. Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society. UBI could work because it redistributes the overly concentrated wealth gained from technology from the ultra rich across society. But raising the minimum wage does not.

> Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job.

Having done a stint in barkeeping myself, it's not an easy job at all and there are many people who aren't cut for it. You have to be resilient enough to deal with all kinds of customers (the "Karen" meme is based in way too much reality) and their issues no matter how you are feeling yourself, it's a job that's quite taxing on your body and honestly it's exhausting.

> Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society.

That reminds me of "A brief history of corporate whining" (https://i.imgur.com/NBSaqzi.png). When Germany introduced the minimum wage for the first time years ago, we had the same argument, and as expected it turned out to be nothing but whining.

Right now, the taxpayers are subsidizing jobs anyway: 70% (!!!) of SNAP/food stamps or Medicaid recipients work full time, with McDonald's and Walmart being in top spots (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-...). These companies could also pay their workers a living wage and provide them with medical insurance and still be profitable!

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#294
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

You can also incentivize people by firing them when they don't do the job well, as every other industry does. Why are you even hiring people who aren't going to do the job well? What kind of crappy attitude is that? "I know you hired me and you're paying me and I'm here to do this job, but I'm going to do it really poorly unless you pay me extra"

Do you not find that some people in the service industry do a better job than others, and make your day more pleasant as a result?

> really poorly

Your words, not mine. Obviously if you're consistently terrible at your job you can get fired. But what's the incentive to go above and beyond, vs "good enough"? And how are tips for a server different from an annual performance based bonus for a white collar worker? I don't hear people raging about that one.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FTC press release reads like they stated a wage+all the tips and then didn't disclose that they were getting a lower wage+all the tips. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/02/amazo... In a typical restaurant job, the stated wage is the legal minimum for a tipped role, and then (in theory anyway), the restaurant is required to ensure that the employee receives the normal minimum wage if they don't…

I don't disagree about the "saying one thing and doing something else" part. I was commenting on the general principle of lowering one's wages (even to below minimum wages) if the person gets enough tips, and how common that is.

It's kind of just semantics, but the thought is that tips don't commonly reduce wages, wages stay the same and tips remove the responsibility for the restaurant to ensure that average hourly pay is meeting the general minimum wage.

Another way to put it is that the tips don't normally change the wage structure, which is exactly what Amazon did.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#297
post #276
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned another comment, expectations. Waiters in Europe are not necessarily slow or less knowledgeable, and waiters in the US are not necessarily fast or knowledgeable. What US waiters are, is visibly polite (obsequious, even?) and ever present. In Europe it's perfectly normal to have a rather rude waiter who takes your order quickly and your food not long after that. They can also be efficient and know the m…

I'm European, live in Europe, and I'm perfectly aware of the service in European restaurants. I still expect "good service" when I go out to eat. I don't care about smiles or being "warm", I care about fast, efficient and correct service. I'm not advocating the US way of doing things, and certainly don't think the service in the US is better on the whole, in fact in many ways it's worse. However what I have found is…

If having bad service sometimes is the price to pay for service personnel having decent lives, it's fine by me.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in Australia and the UK, and travelled around Europe quite a bit, and to the US a few times, I could not say that service is astronomically better in the US. I've found it particularly fake and insincere. When I go to a restaurant, I want good food. I don't particuarly care about the service. That's not to say I want the wait staff to spit on me when I eat my delicious meal, but I'm not really looking fo…

Much of the enjoyment of the meal is predicated on good service though. Were the dishes served appropriately together or was one person’s salad served 5 minutes after the others? Were the courses paced appropriately? Were the drinks continually available? Were the main dishes served hot and together? I don’t need a server asking me every three minutes if everything is okay, but I do need them looking things over and…

These issues/questions you posed I have not experienced a noticeable difference in the aggregate across countries.

There are good restaurants and bad restaurants in every country. I've found no correlation between what you've called service and tipping.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't work. Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society. UBI could work because it redistributes the overly concentrated wealth gained from technology from the ultra rich across society. But raising the minimum wage does not.

> Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Having done a stint in barkeeping myself, it's not an easy job at all and there are many people who aren't cut for it. You have to be resilient enough to deal with all kinds of customers (the "Karen" meme is based in way too much reality) and their issues no matter how you are feeling yourself, it's a job that's quite ta…

So is picking fruits and vegetables. There is endless labor supply. If one doesn't work out you find another. It doesn't matter how hard people in the business think it is - it requires no credentials or education and there is no bar. That's just reality - I feel for people who have to work in that industry, but that's just life.

Your second argument is just, not a real argument. It ignores why the minimum wage could be raised. Subsidies work when other places of the economy can provide said subsidy. When the rest of the economy starts to suffer the subsidy can no longer be provided and the economy collapses - the USSR is a great example. The economy couldn't sustain itself, it collapsed. Now you want to raise the minimum wage, whenever the fed is pumping billions into the economy. The value of the dollar would plummet and inflation would go out of control.

> Right now, the taxpayers are subsidizing jobs anyway: 70% (!!!) of SNAP/food stamps or Medicaid recipients work full time, with McDonald's and Walmart being in top spots (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-...). These companies could also pay their workers a living wage and provide them with medical insurance and still be profitable!

The reason this works is because cheap foreign labor/goods can subsidize walmart paying potential higher wages. If, globally, this minimum wage was mandated, walmart would not be able to afford it, no.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#300
post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

this is sort of a microcosm of socialism vs capitalism. that being the complex discussion that it is, i think your claim that its a "terrible and stupid system" is far from obviously true, if true at all.

1) its entirely possible and common to make a living wage in the tip system. my wife and i just ran the numbers and she grossed ~17$/hour between her two restaurant tip-based jobs - during COVID with capacity restrictions and lack of patronage (for cost of living reference, our house is ~$125/square foot so we're certainly not in NY or SV).

2) the tip system provides opportunity. it is a way for someone with no skills, education, prospects, or CV to start making steady money. eliminating it increases the risk for hirer as they their hiring cost changes astronomically from ~3$/hr to 10-20$/hr. this will close a window for advancement as taking chances on under-performing employees is more expensive; this results in an increase in heritable wage stratification as another path to the american dream is closed.

3) performance incentives are good by definition. you want all systems to have incentives aligned with the desired outcome. i dont see how removing the incentive structure improves the outcome for anyone except bad servers.

4) restaurants dont get a cut of tips. it is a direct transaction between customer and server (less taxes, obviously). this is the peak of efficiency. by forcing restaurants into being a middleman, you are creating a rent-seeker and lowering real economic output.

5) 2 and 4 make it more dangerous to open a new restaurant. raising the bar for entry into any business scenario is generally undesirable and produces less competition and creativity. less success and more expensive failure.

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