Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

871–880 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#871

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

bluGill wrote: post #579
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, unlike GNOME, rolling up sleeves with XFCE4 doesn't come with any kind of Red Hat/IBM sponsorship whatsoever.

Most of KDE doesn't get that either and they have support for wayland. I can excuse XFCE for being slow. However that is very different from the claim that because XFCE is a bit slow that Wayland is in general bad.

KDE has more manpower, and while it still has far too many bugs to be my daily driver, I only have tons of respect for the galaxy-brain maniacs who work on it.

XFCE doesn't have such a big team, and they are careful to maintain stability, so they are going to work slower. I accept this.

The reasons I _personally_ am convinced Wayland is bad has nothing to do with XFCE support, really.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#872

Post by kaba0 »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #866
kaba0 wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the same comment thread by the pentester, it turns out that what wayland does is a necessary step for security that X without embedded X sessions simply lacks. It is not sufficient but noone said so and it would be stupid to even assume that eg. a kernel bug can’t be used for escalation just because someone runs Wayland.

> It is not sufficient but noone said so and it would be stupid to even assume that Err, no, a bunch of people who bother talking about Wayland propose it as a solution to everything. Now that they are being called out on it they are walking back their positions.

Please show me anyone that would think that running wayland with an unsafe kernel would make it safe?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#873

Post by nitrogen »

cycloptic wrote: post #802
nitrogen wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Init system responsible for way, way, way more than init, gradually taking over everything to such a degree that distros are forced to abandon Upstart, SysVinit, whatever Gentoo used back in the day, etc. - Audio system that ignores all the foundations of ALSA and builds Yet Another Layer instead of improving ALSA. - Display system that leaves way too much as an "exercise for the reader". - 10+-year-long transition…

Gentoo still has their own init, some distributions still use sysvinit, and both can run GNOME. Upstart is a dead project AFAIK, and the developer dropped it and said it was strictly inferior to systemd. ALSA is just the kernel layer, there is a limit to what you can put there, so some of it has gone into another layer in userspace, that's by design in the kernel. I won't comment on the display system, everything tha…

ALSA is just the kernel layer

Just one point about ALSA; most of it actually lives in userspace. The ~/.asoundrc file can specify complex routing and mixing, including the use of LADSPA filters. What's done is done, and pulseaudio is reasonably usable now, but IMO we'd be much better off if the work that went into Pulseaudio and jackd instead went into the ALSA userland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#874

Post by Too »

floatboth wrote: post #826
Too wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash wear and disk write ack latency would shoot up the roof for that to work unfortunately.

Only if you care deeply about always having the latest data, rather than just consistent data. I'm talking more along the lines of ZFS – I can always pull the plug without worrying about FS consistency, because the FS always goes between valid, consistent states atomically.

Current generation file systems, including ext4, already have journaling to prevent this.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#875

Post by valand »

ddingus wrote: post #870
valand wrote: post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when are there not alternatives? Example: Steam cloud save. Countless time I have to force quit Steam's background service because Cyberpunk 2077 and GTA V freeze while saving. Steam doesn't show the launch game button, even though the game is killed from task manager. There are no heartbeat like mechanism to keep in check the game process state. And there are no alternative to launch the game that I bought from st…

I agree, and was very unclear and incomplete with my question. One alternative is to simply not use the tool. Can be rough though. Your pain is acute! It absolutely is a feature. Guess the externalities problem crops up in this context. How to actualize those costs better so the equation makes more sense? And yes! I hate lock in viscerally. Frankly, will avoid it at very considerable cost.

> How to actualize those costs better so the equation makes more sense?

Which equation exactly? The balance between effort to stability and other stuffs? Sorry I'm a bit lost

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#876

Post by AnthonyMouse »

monkpit wrote: post #868
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can start with the contention that that isn't true. Even for a new user, the change is going to bring with it a bunch of new bugs because the new code is new, and invalidate all of the solutions to problems that people can search for on the internet until the new thing is as old as the old thing (at which point somebody tries to replace it again). Also, "users" are "people" and the average adult lifespan (18-78) i…

> That implies that the time for the "new users" to become half of the user base is around 30 years That doesn’t add up at all... you’re implying that users are gained and lost at exactly the same rate, consistently, over a span of at least 30 years. It doesn’t invalidate your other point about competition, but it’s a flawed argument to base any reasoning upon.

But the real situation is even stronger to my point, because most software in use today won't be in 30 years. So the real graph for established products is that you continue to get new users for five or ten years as young people learn and old people die, but never enough to even hit the halfway mark. Then your company folds or gets out-competed by something else, your user base falls off a cliff and the software becomes irrelevant.

The point at which "new users" are the majority of the user base never even happens.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#877

Post by arghwhat »

bluefox wrote: post #864
arghwhat wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would Xorg users care about XWayland XWayland is Xorg. An Xwayland fix is an Xorg fix. An Xwayland bug is an Xorg bug. > Those who contribute to Xorg and feel stuck could step up to maintain it, if they wish. (Don't they do it already?) No one maintains Xorg anymore, so there is no one to review patches, merge and roll new releases with them. There's a huge difference between wanting to fix a bit and becoming a…

Welp, as a user of Xorg I'm fine with what I have. You seem to be playing on both senses of Xwayland both being Xorg and not being Xorg, but Xwayland will continue to be irrelevant to me. You say "now or never" but I've no idea what you're talking about. Your reply makes zero sense. If there's any trouble in the future, I'm sure someone will step up, as I said.

You have no idea what I am talking about because you don't engage with upstream Xorg and seem stuck in a "works on my machine" fallacy.

Your attitude to the problem is a big contributor to Xorg upstreams demise.

The biggest is, of course, that none of the maintainers wanted to deal with that dumpster fire anymore and jumped ship, and no one in the know is dumb enough to pick up the torch. But, a delusioned userbase is very unhelpful in recruiting new blood.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#879

Post by SEJeff »

kaba0 wrote: post #843
SEJeff wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia treats Linux as a first class citizen. In fact, the CUDA stuff on Linux is industry leading. As a result, machine learning on Nvidia is really good. I work with Nick Wilt, the author of the book on CUDA. Nvidia on Linux is amazing. Nvidia on Linux without X11 (for guis) is not, sadly.

Well, there is a solution: either buy another video card for graphics, or use iGPU. And leave the nvidia one for CUDA only.

This is in a work issued computer, so no, this is not a valid solution.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#880

Post by R0b0t1 »

kaba0 wrote: post #872
R0b0t1 wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not sufficient but noone said so and it would be stupid to even assume that Err, no, a bunch of people who bother talking about Wayland propose it as a solution to everything. Now that they are being called out on it they are walking back their positions.

Please show me anyone that would think that running wayland with an unsafe kernel would make it safe?

I don't need to demonstrate that. What I said was: Many people who are proponents of Wayland act like it solves all security problems you get while running X11. It doesn't.
Post reply on HN