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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

801–810 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#801

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Fellow game dev here. What breaks do you have? Just wondering.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, AFAIK this is the only part of systemd that really caused an issue, and it was because this is a capability that really needs to be provided by the OS and can't realistically be maintained as part of a desktop environment.

- Init system responsible for way, way, way more than init, gradually taking over everything to such a degree that distros are forced to abandon Upstart, SysVinit, whatever Gentoo used back in the day, etc. - Audio system that ignores all the foundations of ALSA and builds Yet Another Layer instead of improving ALSA. - Display system that leaves way too much as an "exercise for the reader". - 10+-year-long transition…

Gentoo still has their own init, some distributions still use sysvinit, and both can run GNOME. Upstart is a dead project AFAIK, and the developer dropped it and said it was strictly inferior to systemd. ALSA is just the kernel layer, there is a limit to what you can put there, so some of it has gone into another layer in userspace, that's by design in the kernel. I won't comment on the display system, everything that needs to be said there has already been said in the other 700 comments here. I also wish this stuff went faster but unfortunately it takes time to do real work.

I'm not sure what you mean by consensus, if there was consensus on everything then we wouldn't have so many Linux and BSD distributions. We'd probably have just one or two, and you'd probably be more annoyed about "wagging the dog" if that was the case.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#803
post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I quoted isn't a law, this is something that authors have to deliberately put in their licenses/contracts for the specific work in question. If you wish to have other obligations with your open source software that you believe are less wrong, it would be wise to get those in writing.

> it would be wise to get those in writing. I agree with that, projects should clearly state their goals and priorities upfront. But relying on legalese from MIT license is not the solution.

It's not clear what else it is that you'd want. The MIT license seems to get used because it's short and to the point in stating priorities: Here's the software, do what you want with it, but don't take credit and don't come after us if it doesn't work for your use case or if it causes your CPU to explode. If your issue is with the "legalese," it wouldn't be any less meaningful if you stated it differently.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I was mostly referring to low-or-zero-cost products mentioned previously like gmail, outlook or excel, or any random zero-cost piece of open source you can download on github. If you depend on that stuff then it is your problem, that's a signal that you won't pay the extra cost for stability. The businesses that can afford the extra stability are not using the consumer offering, they pay Google/Microsoft…

I do not agree all those are the same as rando OSS on github BTW. Because of that problem, I have always maintained we need a way to better fund some projects. I would love to see the display system funded and all the good stuff worked out properly. For me, the network features and general flexibility of X is worth some money. When I ran SGI machines, that money was paid and the display systems were flat out awesome.…

I believe there are still people maintaining paid X servers on Windows, on Linux not so much.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#805
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

really?!? what next? tomatoes are fruit?

asshole.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#806
post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project" Nothing, until users flee and they stop receiving bug reports, patches, donations, and so forth. Moreover, because of what Gnome is, if they drive users away it will also negatively impact other projects, because for a lot of those users leaving Gnome means ditching open source software entirely and switching to e…

If the users aren't willing to fork, then having them run away to osx (where, by the way, everything is also imposed on you) doesn't seem that great of a loss. Part of the joy of open source are the freedoms it gives you, including the freedom to fork a project that doesn't meet your needs and make it so that it does. This works as it should pretty often - look at the gnome2 forks, the systemd-less distros etc. There…

You are right that with OS X you have no particular say over the features. On the other hand, you do not have to deal with poorly supported hardware, and if something goes wrong there are people whose job is to help you. Most users find those things to be advantages, but many will choose open source software because of the various other freedoms they can get. There are also people who choose open source software because they have unusual requirements that proprietary systems either cannot meet or are too difficult/expensive/onerous to deal with.

Losing users is always a bad thing for the open source ecosystem. Lost users means fewer bug reports, fewer patches, fewer donations, and less support from paid developers working for various corporations (easy to forget but there are people whose job is to maintain open source projects like the Linux kernel). Fewer users means less incentive for hardware companies to provide any support, even just minimal technical documentation, needed for open source developers to write drivers (let alone contribute to that).

Forks require a significant commitment of time and effort, and really should be considered a last resort. The time commitment is much greater for prominent projects that receive a lot of activity like Gnome or Linux. Most users, even those with the necessary technical skills, do not have enough spare time to maintain a fork when things break.

Your dismissive attitude is fine for a obscure hobbyist project with a dozen users. It makes no sense for desktop Linux distros that now have many millions of users.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#807
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/Differences-from-i3 and so thoroughly documented! /s

Unless you have nVidia graphics, sway is probably a drop in replacement for you, with minimal changes from your i3 config. You can literally cp ~/.config/i3/config ~/.config/sway/config and it will work. If you have nVidia, you're outta luck.

I work in ML and the sciences, so nvidia is a huge huge part of my daily life.

intentionally crippling a DE out of spite so it cannot run on the drivers i use every single day is also a crappy look. https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#808
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

> ...or as I've recently taken to calling it, Gnome plus Wayland

gnu wayland thank you very much.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewi­re=true` and that's Wayland's problem? Complain to Slack.

complaining won't help me join a meeting.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#810

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

Anecdotal after using Wayland for the last few months:

  * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it.
Never been an issue on my Samsung laptop. I strongly suspect this depends on your hardware, but I'm not going to spend a week to prove it.

  * The mouse sometimes lags
Never happened outside of catastrophic load scenarios.

  * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites.
Are you using Nvidia? I've had no major graphics glitches since using AMD.

  * Blank screen after resume from hibernate.
Never happened.

The last two aren't applicable, since if anything has been OOM killed recently I didn't notice, and I don't have a Chromecast.

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