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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#281

Post by sokoloff »

madeofpalk wrote: post #265
emptysongglass wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of thei…

Having lived in Australia and the UK, and travelled around Europe quite a bit, and to the US a few times, I could not say that service is astronomically better in the US. I've found it particularly fake and insincere. When I go to a restaurant, I want good food. I don't particuarly care about the service. That's not to say I want the wait staff to spit on me when I eat my delicious meal, but I'm not really looking fo…

Much of the enjoyment of the meal is predicated on good service though.

Were the dishes served appropriately together or was one person’s salad served 5 minutes after the others? Were the courses paced appropriately? Were the drinks continually available? Were the main dishes served hot and together?

I don’t need a server asking me every three minutes if everything is okay, but I do need them looking things over and ensuring that the things that would negatively affect any diner’s enjoyment are being silently taken care of.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#282

Post by sokoloff »

emptysongglass wrote: post #214
abandonliberty wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cultural. You can get amazing service in other countries with little or no tipping culture. Sure, tipping may be an incentive as well, but most people I know won't go below 10% even if the service is terrible.

Which other countries with little to no tipping culture do you receive amazing service? Again, I am curious, not combative, so please take care if applying disdain to my comments.

Japan. Phenomenal service every single place I went and some was so good we tried tipping only to be chased into the street to have the “mistake” fixed.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#283

Post by ryandrake »

tharax wrote: post #248
owlmirror wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked as a waiter during my university time and tips were the best thing in the world for someone that did not need any real qualifications. My wage alone would have barely covered my expenses but with tips I paid all of my living costs and could put aside a bit for my future. It was a system I liked as an employee since even when there were few customers I had not to worry too much about getting laid off immed…

You were frustrated the customer didn't pay you an arbitrary amount to live off based on their mood instead of frustrated that your boss didn't pay you a legally mandated amount to live off. The worst part about tipping culture is that somehow bosses have convinced their staff to be upset at customers.

We’ve got to stop thinking about tipping as “the customer giving money to the server as a reward for good service.” and start thinking about it as “the customer subsidizing the business owner so he can save money on wages.” How did making payroll become the customer’s job and moral duty?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#284

Post by jet_32951 »

emptysongglass wrote: post #209
ben509 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of thei…

Service might simply be seen as better because of cultural differences between your home country and one you visit. Example: in France Americans often perceive restaurant service as slow and indifferent, because the French service is not about feeding you and getting you the hell out of the restaurant. The word "restauration" in French implies a restoring (of not just your stomach, but your well-being) and that is what French restaurants are for. Allowing you to be seated and to look around you for a while, discussing rather than quickly selecting what is on offer for the meal, a leisurely consumption of what is served and a pressure-free interval for some digestion make a meal in France slow.

I'm also told that the coyness of the server in bringing the check comes from the feeling of community a restaurant strives to foster: "we would rather you stayed here a bit". Getting pushy about turning a table over simply doesn't happen in France.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#285

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

cush wrote: post #185
ben509 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

Tell that to the career bartender taking home $70k in cash a year. It depends entirely on the business. Some are great for tips, and others suck.

You shouldn't be downvoted. A lot of people make a lot of money off of tips. Does that translate to most? No, but this incentivizes many people to be pro-tip.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#286

Post by juanani »

user-the-name wrote: post #250
ddingus wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they to be compensated? Appears so. A related topic might be all the people suffering the same theft while working for much smaller players. From there, it moves pretty rapidly to, "get rid of tips and pay a wage that funds people existing reasonably and showing up for work" rather than start a fairly expensive and difficult enforcement effort. Maybe the idea of just avoiding all this mess to prevent what did hap…

If I stole 61 million, I would not be politely asked to pay it back. I would be going to jail for the rest of my life. Who is going to jail for this theft?

You want to steal 61million as well? Join a corporation. Conform or get stomped.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#287

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #266
imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

> If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are. This would be the case in a normal free market, but unfortunately the labor market is not a free market as people don't have the choice to work or not to work - they need to work to survive. As long as millions of people are out of a job, there will be millions desperate to work even for under minimum wage,…

This doesn't work.

Anyone can be a waitress or waiter. The labor is inherently low value because it's an easy job. Raising the minimum wage will just subsidize jobs that have less actual value and it will be a net loss to society.

UBI could work because it redistributes the overly concentrated wealth gained from technology from the ultra rich across society. But raising the minimum wage does not.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#288

Post by lettergram »

viraptor wrote: post #123
vladvasiliu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who steal the difference between a living wage and a tip-subsidized wage? The people who could "steal the difference" are usually the owners, right? Not sure why GP put the owners and kitchen staff in the same bucket. From my experience as a client in bars (without actual kitchens) in Paris, France, where tipping "isn't expected but kinda is" [0], most of the time tips are split between wait staff. So I…

> Not sure why GP put the owners and kitchen staff in the same bucket. Because the parent was talking about rewarding good job. The kitchen staff and the owners are both a factor in your good time and invisible during that time. If that's a honest opinion about the purpose of tips, then I don't see why owners/managers shouldn't share the pool. They run the place, created the environment, hired the people interacting…

Many kitchens or even chain restaurants do share the pool... they won’t share with the owner or managers, but the crew working will.

Kind of astounding reading all these comments because I don’t think any have worked in a kitchen (or perhaps a fast food joint)

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#289

Post by nojvek »

I very much liked that the Uber app didn’t ask for Tips. It felt like a feature. I wish I didn’t have to tip at restaurants. On top of the 11% tax it feels like a 15% tax.

So US restaurants are like Airbnb with their hidden fees of 45% on top of sticker price.

As an Australian I am used to paying the sticker price.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#290

Post by sumedh »

accountofme wrote: post #118
buzzdenver wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been tried in restaurants many times and usually with negative results. People balk at higher prices on the menu.

Not true. Australia does not have tipping in it's culture. We pay our wait staff fair and reasonable rates (legally mandated btw). I don't really think our food costs are too much higher than the USA. And people eat out ALOT here. Food tastes good, service is good. People want to come back. Please expand your horizons.

> We pay our wait staff fair and reasonable rates (legally mandated btw).

Most people I know in Melbourne who worked in restaurants said they got less than minimum wage with cash in hand. Almost all these people were on a working holiday visa or students.

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