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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally you have little to no service interaction in these stores. Actually, in stores like Nordstrom, you get a lot more service (if you want it) than at a restaurant - even when you don't want it. I avoided them for years for this reason. They have a fair number of people who spend much much more time providing these services than doing the other stuff you mentioned.

That's mostly due to the tip's cousin, the sales commission.

Fair enough. A key difference, of course, is that the commission is well defined compared to the tip, which is left to the whims of the customer.

Getting back to my original question: I often get better service from grocery store workers (depending on the chain, of course), than I do from restaurant workers. Yet no one pays them a tip. Same goes for Costco employees. Often the worker at the REI store will spend an inordinate amount of time helping me. No one pays them a tip, and they don't get a commission. From my perspective, all of these people are actually providing a service to me that I actually want, when I want it. Whereas with waiters, they are typically forced upon me. It's usually the exception that I want some service that requires a waiter.

The point being: There are more ways than tips to build a culture of good service, and it's inane to think tips are needed to maintain quality.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#192
post #135
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally you have little to no service interaction in these stores. The people in them are order takers, not sellers; whenever they are pushed to sell, the customer finds it intrusive since normally its value-less or negative products (cough, extended warranties). There also never is enough staff. The staff doesn't have time to provide customer service in meaningful ways; they more or less clean, stock, cashier, and…

BeetleB, Most of that old-style retail is dying out though. The department store model of Sears and Macys lost to the big-box model of walmart and best buy. These days you are lucky if there is enough staff to run the registers in a pinch; big box retail and specialty can be absurdly cheap. Like the whole gamestop debacle-go into the store and you'll find maybe they have barely enough payroll to have more than one pe…

Getting to the discussion at hand: Are they dying because of a lack of tips? It seems their decline is orthogonal to the issue.

Also, as someone pointed out, they typically get paid commissions, but my there are lots of other places where one does get pretty good service without tips or commissions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26023514

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#193
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still a lot better than going to prison for multiple years which is what common man would face for stealing.

I've thought for a long time wage theft should be criminal like every other type of theft. And the law should require 1 day in prison for every $10,000 stolen. Steal $62M in tips should mean a bunch of people go to prison for $61.7M/ $10,000 = 6170 days or 17 years.

Start sending the exec's who had the final say in these decisions to jail. And then slap the company with a fine proportional to their networth. You'll see companies actually following the law a lot more then. Right now there is almost zero consequences. What they get some bad PR and a slap on the wrist? That'll definitely make them not do it again!

Honestly as a big company why wouldn't you just go cutting corners and breaking a bunch of laws. The gain you get is larger than the loss when you get into legal trouble so why would you follow the laws anyway.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#194
I understand (and generally agree to) the arguments that people should be paid a living wage, and tipping after the transaction doesn't have any effect on an individual level. But I wonder what's the effect on service quality on general? Are there any studies on this?

Asking because here in Germany, service is often terrible, at least in casual restaurants. Like it's not uncommon to spend more time waiting than eating. You come in, you wait 10 minutes before they find out (you're usually not seated), get your menus, wait another 10 minutes until they come back. You get your food, and sometimes you can be glad if you ever see them again. If you want to pay and don't have another 15 minutes, go to the counter. I often prefer going to self-service restaurants because it is less of a hassle. Going to a restaurant in a 60 minute lunch break is a challenge.

Also, tipping is uncommon. I just wonder whether there is any correlation.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#195
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

>I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I've got very limited and potentially misleading information about what a reasonable expectation is. I've got no idea what small crises my server had to deal with, or how other customers are treating him. That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in y…

> Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation

Tautology anyone?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#196

I never use the tipping option in delivery/taxi apps because I don't trust them. Prefer to give a tip directly when I can otherwise not.

When I drove for Uber for a brief period I almost never got cash tips. Before they introduced the tipping option in the app I maybe got tips in cash 5-10% of the time. When Uber added tipping I did find I got tipped a bit more than I did in the past and cash dipped to almost never. Now to be fair I am in Canada and we are a lot more digital when it comes to payment. I know America still has a decent amount of cash usage, but I know many people here don't carry cash on them, especially younger people.

I found that one of the few times I'd get a "tip" in cash was when someone asked if I was okay waiting for them to run into a convenience store on their way home, or for me to go to another destination that wasn't put into Uber after the first drop-off. And that worked for me, I'd much rather take cash and cut out Uber of taking a huge chunk of that extra.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what about the people who have actively just been shortchanged out of 61.7M USD in tips? Surely that' the topic here?

Well as a Canadian I’m going who the hell tips the Amazon delivery person

I agree that of all developed countries, tipping is most prevalent in the USA, but as a fellow Canadian I wouldn't assume our Amazon delivery people are being paid anymore. They are independent contractors and not subject to minimum wage laws. If anything, their effective wage might be lower because vehicle operating expenses are higher in Canada.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#198
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, in California the tipped minimum wage is at least $13/hr state wide (and $14/hr for businesses with 25 employees or more). I believe in San Francisco, it’s also just strictly the same as minimum wage of $16.07/hr (and again for larger businesses, Healthy SF medical coverage is also mandatory [Edit: actually, providing coverage is, not Healthy SF, that’s just the cheapest coverage and so very common], and…

"Healthy SF medical coverage is also mandatory" I don't think Healthy SF coverage is mandatory. From what I've read, businesses have two other options: provide a regular healthcare plan, or set aside a fund to reimburse employee healthcare costs as they arise. Restaurants usually go for that last option. "usually passed onto patrons as a 4% fee on their bill, though this isn’t dictated by statute" I find the last par…

Good point, I updated my comment with an edit: Healthy SF isn’t mandated, providing health care is (and the very limited Healthy SF coverage is basically the cheapest option, so most restaurants do that).

On the “dictated by statute”, I actually mentioned that because so many people figured it was! Much like sales tax, it’s often on the bill as if it’s a thing that the city has specified and that it was a city program (rather than the city mandating that larger businesses provide coverage). Many restaurants are quite clear about it “we use this money to pay for healthcare for our workers”, but the biggest surprise for me was that the “market rate” ended up settling at about 4%. When some restaurants instead do an $X/patron or $Y/ticket add on, it catches people by surprise.

Either way, I find it amusing what people are “willing” to pay for things, especially if we can get closer to living wages for everyone. (I’m all for more “taxes” on bills that somehow people prefer over menu items going up in price).

tl;dr: good point, clarified my statements!

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#199
post #152

Previous: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26003836 I appreciated samizdis’ comment, which I’ll just copy in full: FTC Commissioner Rohit Chopra has also put out a statement [1], titled Regarding the Deception of Delivery Drivers by Amazon.com Commission File No. 1923123 Some extracts: > In total, Amazon stole nearly one-third of drivers’ tips to pad its own bottom line. ... > ... Amazon executives chose not to a…

I am truly amazed that the world's (top, second?) richest man runs a company that cleared $7.2 billion during a global pandemic year, but had to steal $62m to make its books look clean. Whoever participated this should lose their jobs, and be prosecuted. Really scummy move!

Their whole business is based on testing the limits of how much you can squeeze out of people using the very advantage of being a huge company.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#200
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no culture of customer service at all in Europe from what I've heard, with apathetic to downright rude waitstaff being the norm. There's a chance it wouldn't be that way if there were tips.

IME it’s not “no customer service” as much as “less customer service” in many of the non-tip places. The staff checks on you less often and you sometimes have to actively flag them down or end up waiting for quite a while. For an American who is used to the standard “Drink? —> Order —> Refill —> How’s everything? —> Refill —> Anything else? Dessert? Just the check?” cadence to dining it is strange and may seem like t…

> The staff checks on you less often and you sometimes have to actively flag them down or end up waiting for quite a while.

What you describe is fairly common in American restaurants where people tip. Between a third to a half of the times I eat out I cannot rely on them checking up on me and I do have to flag them. And waiting is common in about 100% of them.

(And no, I don't think they're doing it only to me because I'm a nasty brat - I've observed this to be normal with the other customers as well).

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