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On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

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Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#111

Post by pdonis »

Layke1123 wrote: post #94
pdonis wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your brain is only reacting to those external causal events No, it isn't "only reacting". It is processing the incoming causal events, in a very complex way that "only reacting" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of describing. > At no point is there a spontaneous reaction that is unpredictable according to the known laws of physics, therefore, you don't have free will. This definition of "free will" is poin…

You can't claim it that "only reacting" doesn't help explain the process because at the end of they day, you, nor I, can exactly explain how consciousness works. The only evidence we have to likely explain it is that it likely is a cause and effect system like EVERYTHING we can observe externally so far. And again, just because you claim my world view would be tyrannical DOES NOT make it true. My definition of free w…

> it likely is a cause and effect system

Of course consciousness is a cause and effect system like everything else. I have never claimed otherwise, and the viewpoint I am defending certainly does not require otherwise.

> My definition of free will is the common understanding of free will

The common understanding of free will is that people can make choices and that those choices affect what happens to them. That can be true even in the deterministic universe you say you believe in.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#112

Post by pdonis »

abellerose wrote: post #90
pdonis wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The phrase "making choices" is just semantics for the topic of free will being an illusion. I disagree. See my response to Layke1123 just now. > Knowledge is power in society. Does it change your fate? The answer is no Again, I disagree; see my response to Layke1123 just now. I understand the attitude you are taking; I just don't think it's a good idea. Believing this will cause more harm and more suffering. More o…

> I'm very sorry you went through what you went through. And how you deal with it personally, in your own life, is of course entirely your choice. But that very observation (see the irony?) illustrates the error in the general conclusion you are drawing from it. No. I didn't have a choice at all. You keep using the word "choice" or assuming it when there's no choice and I'll repeat there's truly no choice. I think or…

> I think you're not willing to have a lengthy discussion by email

Correct. I'm sorry you had to go through what you went through (and I'm sorry you have cancer and have to deal with that too, I saw your post upthread about that). I wish you the best, and I will leave it at that.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#113

Post by abellerose »

Layke1123 wrote: post #95
abellerose wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I felt lucky to read your responses to the person that's stuck on semantics or by whatever force(s) that make him assume he has choices when there's no choices. Majority of people I've been able to have the discussion with do eventually understand free will is an illusion and "making choices" is just a human expression that doesn't describe reality. So, I think it's possible that one day determinists will out…

Ahh to have been born into a society that is free of misinformation and the willing propagation of it indeed would be something else. I'm sorry you have cancer. =/ I wish we would have figured this one out by now but it seems we are more interested in how to sell batteries instantly over the internet more than we care about solving the medical problems of others. We are still a very self centered form of life for the…

Yah it could've been something else. :)

I'm not getting treatment because life has never been great by being disfigured from the wrong puberty and while remembering the conversion therapy with everything else that happened back then.

I'm now somewhat curious if your understanding of not having free will makes you okay with death as well? I've had a few conversations with my Oncologist and most patients of his are really fearful of death.

I personally think under different circumstances life would've been amazing to know free will is an illusion in my younger years for also having a stronger mentality of protecting myself from people I wanted to love but were really ill in a controlling way of thinking choices are everything. That's why I think understanding free will is an illusion allows oneself to have a better life even if everything is fated. Since that added information will make a person be able to realize how they need to adjust when they can, improve realization of why others are acting ill towards them and maybe even mental health would really benefit from it. I think that because I was surrounded by people that would sit & pray and well that never did anything lol.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#114

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #110
Layke1123 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing consequences on a person is absolutely imposing your values and beliefs onto said person. All it a consequence a you want, at the end of they day you are removing their ability to choose murder. As for your One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest comment, next I expect you to tell me Whote Walkers are headed my way because narrative episodes are so indicative of what happens in the real world. /s

> at the end of they day you are removing their ability to choose murder. No, I'm not, because the consequence only gets imposed after they have made that choice. Removing their ability to choose murder would mean changing them beforehand so they don't choose to murder in the first place. Which, if it can be done while respecting their right to freedom of choice, would of course be vastly preferable.

You can't respect someone's freedom to murder without approving of said murder. You actually do not believe what you are saying or are being intentionally obtuse.

If you could prevent the unlawful murder of someone, you don't give a damn about their choice. You are making the choice for them by saying it is not allowed. Your implementation of that forced choice is currently handled by the law. In the future, it might be before they are even able to generate a murderous impulse.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#115

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #111
Layke1123 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't claim it that "only reacting" doesn't help explain the process because at the end of they day, you, nor I, can exactly explain how consciousness works. The only evidence we have to likely explain it is that it likely is a cause and effect system like EVERYTHING we can observe externally so far. And again, just because you claim my world view would be tyrannical DOES NOT make it true. My definition of free w…

> it likely is a cause and effect system Of course consciousness is a cause and effect system like everything else. I have never claimed otherwise, and the viewpoint I am defending certainly does not require otherwise. > My definition of free will is the common understanding of free will The common understanding of free will is that people can make choices and that those choices affect what happens to them. That can…

It is not free will in the sense that you can spontaneously decide it for yourself. I can choose to eat vanilla yogurt or plain yogurt. That is the narrative my brain hallucinates. The reality behind the illusion is that the choice was made before I even am aware of the "story I tell myself" that I chose one or the other.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#116

Post by Layke1123 »

abellerose wrote: post #113
Layke1123 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh to have been born into a society that is free of misinformation and the willing propagation of it indeed would be something else. I'm sorry you have cancer. =/ I wish we would have figured this one out by now but it seems we are more interested in how to sell batteries instantly over the internet more than we care about solving the medical problems of others. We are still a very self centered form of life for the…

Yah it could've been something else. :) I'm not getting treatment because life has never been great by being disfigured from the wrong puberty and while remembering the conversion therapy with everything else that happened back then. I'm now somewhat curious if your understanding of not having free will makes you okay with death as well? I've had a few conversations with my Oncologist and most patients of his are rea…

I am Okay with death not necessarily because of my views on free will being an illusion (which I think it can help people cope with death), but my far more potent though on death is that I see it exactly as before I was born. I do not remember before I was born, and therefor I'm just as likely to not remember my death, but one thing is for sure.

I can enjoy whatever slice of infinitesmially small time I have here on Earth, or I can not exist faster than what nature is trying to do to me. I'll continue to exist for as long as I can simply to spite it all and make my time here as long as possible, even if ultimately I would later realize I would have liked to end it sooner, I simply have made this a resolute position I will not falter on and will strive to find a way to make this existence as pleasant for me and others as I am physically and mentally capable of. Who knows if I will succeed, but I'm gonna try my hardest to be like that.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#117

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #109
Layke1123 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the has nothing to do with the idea that one has free will, only that I exhibit behavior that allows you to pursue your own desires, I.E I'm not actively harming you or putting you into prison. Redefine what free will means all you want, it doesn't make your arguments any more true.

> I exhibit behavior that allows you to pursue your own desires Okay, then please don't rearrange my brain, even if you think it would "improve" some "deficiency" of mine. If we're agreed on that, then I'm good.

I would rearrange your brain if you had cancer and I was capable of removing it.

One day we will do the same with thought cancers and viruses I am sure.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#118

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #105
Layke1123 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not it wouldn't and our society is largely a result of your way of thinking. We have yet to see how a society that advocates determinism would turn out.

> our society is largely a result of your way of thinking It most certainly is not. Our society refuses to respect people's right to freedom of choice in all kinds of ways. And most of those ways can't even be justified on the grounds of harm to others, which is where your big sticking point seems to be. Our society throws people in jail just for having drugs in their possession, even if they haven't harmed anyone an…

No, in your society, the one we live in right now, it is already happening. People have others choices imposed on them. A parent thrusts their choices onto their children often to much detriment as the aforementioned person.

In a society I'm proposing, those kind of choices aren't able to be thrusted on a person because the idea that you can choose for someone is removed. It simply is behavior that is exhibited, and we understand that behavior enough to change it or we need to learn more to understand the behavior. Your reality, the current one we live in, is the nightmare for some people.

The Soviet Union and Communist China, terms you want to use to describe them, do not sound like what I am advocating in the slightest. I'm advocating that we acknowledge the underlying reality that we are not free to make choices. There is only the illusion our brains create. How you interpret that is on you. It has nothing to do with other countries or systems of government. Stop trying to drag in straw mans because your ideas lack substance.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#119

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #108
Layke1123 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you rather me be doing to fight it? Be on TV everyday as single handedly bringing in the bad guys who are making their "choices" to traffick children? Are you ok with their "choices" to hurt children? Why aren't you on TV everyday bringing the bad guys into jail?

> What would you rather me be doing to fight it? Honest answer? You and I, as individuals, can't fight it unless we are right there when it happens. As I have said, more than once now, the fact that we can make choices does not make us omnipotent. In any case, I'm not the one that is saying everyone should drop everything and go fight child trafficking. You are. I am simply pointing out that you are not actually doin…

We can't fight it unless it happens right in front of us? We can donate to organizations that do have the stated purpose. We can vote for politicians who propose laws and policies that make it extremely difficult for it to happen. How are you powerless to do anything about it unless it happens "right in front of you"?

And I'm pointing out how in my capacity I am doing everything I can to fight it. Part of that is convincing your (or more likely others reading this), that your position is wrong.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#120

Post by Layke1123 »

pdonis wrote: post #106
Layke1123 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't, and I'm not advocating for a violent person to not be stopped. You are. You say the most important thing is to defend a person's right to "choose" their behavior. In that case, you are a hypocrite because then you turn around and say I am OK with subverting the will of a person as long as it affects me negatively. If it affects someone else, well, do you really care? From your answers, you seem not to…

> I'm not advocating for a violent person to not be stopped. You're advocating for "stopping" them by having someone else rearrange their brain so they won't be violent any more. And you refuse to acknowledge the fact that that someone else is making a choice that has consequences; to you it's all just particles reacting to their environment. Yet you also seem to think suffering is bad--but if it's all just particles…

Absolutely! Re-education, rehabilitation is exactly THAT! It's altering the synaptic connections in the brain to bring their behavior in line with what we view should be the case in civilized society. You just seem to have a problem with making that process more efficient.

And it is all just particles moving around, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore what is very likely an unpleasant experience from your subjective, internal point of view. I don't dismiss your personal experience of reality, just your rational understanding of what's going on.

And I do, I really do, but you are inconsistent. You say you should be free to make your choices, but then also want to put people in jail fornmaking their free choices. You call it consequences, and yet that doesn't eliminate the fact that you then want to LIMIT THEIR FREEDOM TO CHOOSE to do it again. You are self contradictory. At best, you are picking what choices people are and aren't allowed to make.

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