On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines • Hacker News Board

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#91

Post by abellerose » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

Layke1123 wrote: post #55

abellerose wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason for me of suggesting email is because I simply don't find writing responses on HackerNews as a great medium to have a conversation that likely will be lengthy. Basically, there's no good way to quote or even make a list with bullets and I prefer my macOS mail interface than a html textbox. The phrase "making choices" is just semantics for the topic of free will being an illusion. There's no different…

This was a very eye opening response that even made me think about things in a new light. Thank you for sharing your story.

Thanks. I felt lucky to read your responses to the person that's stuck on semantics or by whatever force(s) that make him assume he has choices when there's no choices.

Majority of people I've been able to have the discussion with do eventually understand free will is an illusion and "making choices" is just a human expression that doesn't describe reality. So, I think it's possible that one day determinists will out number free will believers. Would be nice to have been born into such a society that's modern and well structured for everyone's health with a dream of equality.

Btw, I have cancer so I don't have as much energy and cannot write on HackerNews as much as I used to be able to. Once again, thanks for writing what you did and even when it was just by fate.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#92

Post by wizzwizz4 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 9:31 AM UTC

Layke1123 wrote: post #48

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never underestimate the adaptability of rhetoric.

While cute, it misses the point. If I say a car is coming, it is then up to the person to decide whether they step into the street or not. This is not a rhetorical argument.

You say that the world being deterministic somehow makes “we should be nice to each other” an inescapable conclusion… but really, it's just a framing that lets you escape the existing divisive rhetoric. If it became widespread, we'd get new rhetoric.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#93

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #88

Layke1123 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't declare it by fiat. You claimed no system should dictate how you behave, and yet you dictate how a person should behave. Your own argument defeats itself. "New mental paradigm" means you don't think like you used to. I.E., if you were ever religious, that was one mental paradigm. If you ever lose your religious beliefs, now you have a new mental paradigm to understand the world and operate in it. As for fixi…

> you dictate how a person should behave Putting a person in prison because, say, they murdered someone, is not dictating how they should behave. It is imposing a consequence on their behavior. Evidently you are unable to tell the difference between those two things. That doesn't mean there isn't one. > As for fixing the prison problem, it absolutely does. You are either extremely ignorant and naive, or trolling. Any…

Forcing consequences on a person is absolutely imposing your values and beliefs onto said person. All it a consequence a you want, at the end of they day you are removing their ability to choose murder.

As for your One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest comment, next I expect you to tell me Whote Walkers are headed my way because narrative episodes are so indicative of what happens in the real world. /s

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#94

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #89

Layke1123 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those causal processes still have effects outside those brains does not remove the idea that your brain only exists because of external causal events, and your brain is only reacting to those external causal events. At no point is there a spontaneous reaction that is unpredictable according to the known laws of physics, therefore, you don't have free will.

> your brain is only reacting to those external causal events No, it isn't "only reacting". It is processing the incoming causal events, in a very complex way that "only reacting" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of describing. > At no point is there a spontaneous reaction that is unpredictable according to the known laws of physics, therefore, you don't have free will. This definition of "free will" is poin…

You can't claim it that "only reacting" doesn't help explain the process because at the end of they day, you, nor I, can exactly explain how consciousness works. The only evidence we have to likely explain it is that it likely is a cause and effect system like EVERYTHING we can observe externally so far.

And again, just because you claim my world view would be tyrannical DOES NOT make it true. My definition of free will is the common understanding of free will that you are trying to redefine to fit your world view.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#95

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

abellerose wrote: post #91

Layke1123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a very eye opening response that even made me think about things in a new light. Thank you for sharing your story.

Thanks. I felt lucky to read your responses to the person that's stuck on semantics or by whatever force(s) that make him assume he has choices when there's no choices. Majority of people I've been able to have the discussion with do eventually understand free will is an illusion and "making choices" is just a human expression that doesn't describe reality. So, I think it's possible that one day determinists will out…

Ahh to have been born into a society that is free of misinformation and the willing propagation of it indeed would be something else.

I'm sorry you have cancer. =/ I wish we would have figured this one out by now but it seems we are more interested in how to sell batteries instantly over the internet more than we care about solving the medical problems of others. We are still a very self centered form of life for the moment. I wish you the best of luck and if I can donate at all to your fight against cancer, I hope my small contribution would make a difference none the less.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#96

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:24 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #86

Layke1123 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you claim things that happen inside the human brain have causal influences on things outside the brain and yet at the same time ignore the causal influences the outside world has on the internal brain processes? Information flow is a two way street if it can happen in one direction as far as I am aware. What you seem to not grasp is the idea that external events can influence your behavior.

> How can you claim things that happen inside the human brain have causal influences on things outside the brain and yet at the same time ignore the causal influences the outside world has on the internal brain processes? I have done no such thing. Obviously the causal influences go both ways. > What you seem to not grasp is the idea that external events can influence your behavior. What you seem not to grasp is that…

External events are the only meaningful thing you can experience. Your whole internal world is built entirely around what you experience externally. It's why you don't wall around talking about dead people waking amongst us without having psychologists commit you to intuitions.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#97

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:28 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #87

Layke1123 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why is my outcome not worse for believing I don't have free will?

> why is my outcome not worse for believing I don't have free will? You still don't get it. Your brain is doing the thing that I call "making choices", but which I called "causal processes" because you have trouble with words like "choices", whether you believe in free will or not. Those causal processes in your brain have a significant effect on your outcomes, whether you believe in free will or not. And how much of…

But the has nothing to do with the idea that one has free will, only that I exhibit behavior that allows you to pursue your own desires, I.E I'm not actively harming you or putting you into prison. Redefine what free will means all you want, it doesn't make your arguments any more true.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#98

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:30 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #84

Layke1123 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I am debating against someone who claims free will is what will stop child trafficking. If I can convince you to move your position to mine, I can't influence others to also move to my position, and if all people end up viewing it similarly to me, I believe we will solve child trafficking.

> I am debating against someone who claims free will is what will stop child trafficking. I have made no such claim. I have said that, on net, a society where people's right to make free choices is respected will have less suffering and more good things than a society where it isn't. But that doesn't mean no bad things will ever happen in the former type of society. Nor is respecting others' right to make free choice…

Not it wouldn't and our society is largely a result of your way of thinking. We have yet to see how a society that advocates determinism would turn out.

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#99

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:32 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #85

Layke1123 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I am debating against someone who claims free will is what will stop child trafficking. If I can convince you to move your position to mine, I can't influence others to also move to my position, and if all people end up viewing it similarly to me, I believe we will solve child trafficking.

> I am debating... And to you, this counts as stopping everything you are doing and fighting child trafficking immediately? Hm.

What would you rather me be doing to fight it? Be on TV everyday as single handedly bringing in the bad guys who are making their "choices" to traffick children? Are you ok with their "choices" to hurt children? Why aren't you on TV everyday bringing the bad guys into jail?

Re: On the dangers of seeing human minds as predictive machines

#100

Post by Layke1123 » Wed, Feb 03, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #83

Layke1123 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't actually believe that! You would put someone in prison if they attacked you physically for no reason. You would willingly force that person into confinement until they no longer tried to inflict violence on you. You can't have ti both ways.

No, you can't have it both ways. You didn't say you would willingly accept prison. You said you would willingly accept a mechanism to improve your deficiency. The way you have described prison elsewhere in this thread, you clearly believe that prison doesn't do that. So you wouldn't accept prison. You would only accept a mechanism that "improves your deficiency". What I said is that I want to have the choice about ho…

No it doesn't, and I'm not advocating for a violent person to not be stopped. You are. You say the most important thing is to defend a person's right to "choose" their behavior. In that case, you are a hypocrite because then you turn around and say I am OK with subverting the will of a person as long as it affects me negatively. If it affects someone else, well, do you really care? From your answers, you seem not to care in the slightest.