Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

851–860 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#851

Post by [deleted] »

pmoriarty wrote: post #402
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

It's a couple of years old, but this post on "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet." [1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland: "at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don't work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors. Examples (in order of importance to me): * Programmatic output configura…

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#852

Post by dolmen »

ddingus wrote: post #814
cycloptic wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are still people maintaining paid X servers on Windows, on Linux not so much.

There are, last I looked. I used Exceed a lot. Exemplary. That program did everything nicely. I even used a CAD app on Windows that actually was built for X and it was network transparent same as any Unix box! There is a sub $100 one out there. Maybe a bit more now. Maybe gone too. It was very good. The freebies are respectable and great for sysadmin. Funding a first class X11 replacement that also does some new thin…

> Good discussion, BTW.

Agreed.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#853

Post by hprotagonist »

Shared404 wrote: post #823
hprotagonist wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in ML and the sciences, so nvidia is a huge huge part of my daily life. intentionally crippling a DE out of spite so it cannot run on the drivers i use every single day is also a crappy look. https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

From your link: > There are Linux kernel APIs that we (and other Wayland compositors) use to get the job done. Among these are KMS, DRM, and GBM - respectively Kernel Mode Setting, Direct Rendering Manager, and Generic Buffer Management. Every GPU vendor but Nvidia supports these APIs. Edit: I should mention, if your hardware doesn't support given software, just don't use that software. There's just no need to go in…

> if your hardware doesn't support given software, just don't use that software. There's just no need to go in shouting about how terrible said software is

tell that to DDV :)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#854

Post by DrBazza »

Many of the comments here complete vindicate Drew's post. In fact he's written a few articles on Wayland, with links to others, that some commenters here would do well to read. They explain Wayland, they explain X11, they explain desktop environments. His post is well-founded.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#855

Post by Shared404 »

hprotagonist wrote: post #853
Shared404 wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: > There are Linux kernel APIs that we (and other Wayland compositors) use to get the job done. Among these are KMS, DRM, and GBM - respectively Kernel Mode Setting, Direct Rendering Manager, and Generic Buffer Management. Every GPU vendor but Nvidia supports these APIs. Edit: I should mention, if your hardware doesn't support given software, just don't use that software. There's just no need to go in…

> if your hardware doesn't support given software, just don't use that software. There's just no need to go in shouting about how terrible said software is tell that to DDV :)

Ranting about people complaining because you don't go out of your way to support their hardware doesn't seem the same to me.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#856

Post by throwaways885 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #483
throwaways885 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's fair, but they have done a good job of bringing much of the industry on board, rather than just being an esoteric hobbyist project.

I didn't mean to imply that Valve's contributions have not been significant in improving the situation with Wine, only that unlike the other examples Wine was already good before the involvement of a wealthy company.

Wine was a great technical achievement, but I remember it taking me hours crawling through WineDB and reading config guides to get most games working. Even for someone in the know, it was very impractical compared to clicking "Play" in Steam. That user experience makes all the difference.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#857

Post by [deleted] »

regularfry wrote: post #845
folkrav wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly active on the Python slack channel, and this very question comes up really often when people ask for help, and in my experience, is basically never meant as disrespectful. As for the small differences in semantics, I'm not a native speaker, neither have outright negative connotations to me, but I feel like getting tripped up on such a small thing - and simultaneously assuming the interlocutor's intentions…

The semantic difference is not small. "Would", using the subjunctive, implies that the "want" is theoretical, that the person asking is in some sense trying to come up with a hypothetical situation that can be written off as being unrealistic or a silly edge case. Using it diminishes the experience of the questioner and is intrinsically disrespectful. The fact that people have got used to hearing it so much that they…

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#858

Post by __s »

avh02 wrote: post #834
kaba0 wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet again, wayland is the protocol. Wlroots based wayland compositors doesn’t support the nvidia created API, but gnome and as far as I know plasma on wayland both do so. So your statement is simply false that wayland can’t run on nvidia (proprietary. The open source version works everywhere).

> Yet again, wayland is the protocol. if people on HN don't know or care on something like this (I didn't, and I don't), then good luck telling less HN-y people about wayland being the protocol and not the implementation. I'm annoyed at myself for this very comment, but somehow, somebody (many people), somewhere messed up the messaging around these things.

The messaging needs to not say "wayland replaces X11", but instead "GNOME or KDE replace X11" & if someone wants to use a different compositor it's up to that compositor whether they want to match X11 features or not (& then the rest of the software ecosystem to implement support for that compositor's features)

Then it becomes a question of whether GNOME/KDE have feature parity between X11 & wayland. Then other compositors can go about implementing the interfaces they've setup to be GNOME or KDE compatible

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#859

Post by andykais »

ddingus wrote: post #723
nitrogen wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. This is hugely underappreciated. Last fall I decided I would get back into making videos for YouTube after 7 years away. But two videos into the new series, and the constant crashes of my video editing software I just paid $$$ for have reminded me why I stopped making videos in the first place.

Yes! I hate making videos for that reason. It is action, save, action, save, etc... Ultra painful. And anytime I hit flow, I am either gambling by not saving and disturbing flow, or leaving flow trying to save... agreed.

This is super off topic, but I also find working with video UIs frustrating for this reason. For my own needs, I have been working on a video editing tool that has a workflow more similar to web dev. E.g. describe changes in text files and render the final video on the command line. https://github.com/andykais/ffmpeg-templates

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#860

Post by lewispollard »

dancek wrote: post #327
lewispollard wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> dictatorial power over 100s of users GNOME has tens of millions of users. I do understand your sentiment. I don't like GNOME myself. But there are alternatives. If you don't like it, try using something else, contributing patches with configurable behavior or maintaining a fork. FLOSS maintainers are a rare breed. We as a community need to find ways to not burn them out. Even if you have millions of happy users, ju…

> GNOME has tens of millions of users.

I was referring to the hundreds of users who "reacted" to the bugzilla thread on this issue, but I'm sure it effects many many more.

> I do understand your sentiment. I don't like GNOME myself. But there are alternatives. If you don't like it, try using something else, contributing patches with configurable behavior or maintaining a fork.

Generally I don't use GNOME, on this occasion I was working on a laptop supplied by an employer. The frustrating thing isn't that they don't support a feature that I want, it's that they strip away features that existed before, and completely ignore and talk down to users who tell them that the feature is very useful and much wanted.

Post reply on HN