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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

821–830 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#821
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

You're dancing around the problem: Wayland works (such as it is) by offloading functionality that was part of X to the desktop software like gnome or kde and then saying "but that's not our problem!" when something breaks. Never mind that program collection 'A' (including X11) was working and program colleciton 'B' (the Wayland way) wasn't.

> You're dancing around the problem

Please be a little bit more charitable: I'm very candid about the usability problems on the Linux desktop, I'm just telling people where they need to send their time, money and concerns to fix it.

> "but that's not our problem!" when something breaks.

Which is the entire point of getting rid of X11. Wayland is a display protocol and does not intend to solve all of the problems that X11 ended up solving, same as the display stack in any OS designed after 1990 (like Windows, Mac OS X, BeOS, Android and ChromeOS) do not solve these problems either.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#822
post #220

> just to maintain that broken pile of shit. > It has a real cost, you know, being a dick to maintainers. Which way is it, chief?

There aren't any Xorg maintainers left. Xorg was abandoned, by its maintainers, because it's a broken pile of shit. Calling it a broken pile of shit is validating its (ex-)maintainers, not being a dick to them.

I highly doubt that nobody who used to work on Xorg would be offended by you calling it a broken pile of shit.

And then there's this, from you, today:

> GNOME is a dumpster fire [1]

Can you say the same about Gnome maintainers? Do you think they're not offended by you calling their project a dumpster fire? You're being hypocritical and going to great lengths to spin a narrative to justify your abusive language.

I feel you on entitled and abusive users, but stooping to their level reflects poorly on you and to a lesser extent on the projects associated with you, including Wayland. You can choose to be better than that.

Honestly, your attitude in TFA and here is doing more harm than good. Have you considered taking a hiatus for a while to re-center yourself? Maybe find another outlet for your frustrations? Or maybe consider @titzer's suggestion [2]: delete the post and start over.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26004413

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26002869

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#823
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have nVidia graphics, sway is probably a drop in replacement for you, with minimal changes from your i3 config. You can literally cp ~/.config/i3/config ~/.config/sway/config and it will work. If you have nVidia, you're outta luck.

I work in ML and the sciences, so nvidia is a huge huge part of my daily life. intentionally crippling a DE out of spite so it cannot run on the drivers i use every single day is also a crappy look. https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

From your link:

> There are Linux kernel APIs that we (and other Wayland compositors) use to get the job done. Among these are KMS, DRM, and GBM - respectively Kernel Mode Setting, Direct Rendering Manager, and Generic Buffer Management. Every GPU vendor but Nvidia supports these APIs.

Edit: I should mention, if your hardware doesn't support given software, just don't use that software. There's just no need to go in shouting about how terrible said software is.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are still people maintaining paid X servers on Windows, on Linux not so much.

There are, last I looked. I used Exceed a lot. Exemplary. That program did everything nicely. I even used a CAD app on Windows that actually was built for X and it was network transparent same as any Unix box! There is a sub $100 one out there. Maybe a bit more now. Maybe gone too. It was very good. The freebies are respectable and great for sysadmin. Funding a first class X11 replacement that also does some new thin…

The only real option for a high-end Unix workstation with heavily integrated software that still exists seems to be the Mac Pro. Linux is really not comparable to IRIX.

People keep saying that Wayland needs to be more of an X replacement but it's never clear what that means. You want 3D graphics over the network, that currently means Vulkan, and if you were going to do that, there doesn't seem to be much reason to tie it to any particular window system.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#825
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Nouveau ever was ported before. I actually tried it myself (unsuccessfully). Kind of a painful codebase. > usually some versions behind Currently on 5.4-5.5, only Big Navi is not supported yet. With the state of the GPU market right now, we'll probably catch up before the prices on those become sane :D Funnily enough, it's Intel that's slowing the updates down more than anything. amdgpu is rarely an ear…

It was a very long time ago (long enough for 'xf86' naming) https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau

No, xf86 naming is still there, but you're kinda misunderstanding what a driver is. These xf86 things are tiny pieces for the xorg server. (Irrelevant with Wayland, obviously.) The real "meat" of the driver is in two places: Mesa and the kernel. The kernel module is the hard part. You can install the higher level parts without it, they just won't be useful. You can have the xf86 thing, and libdrm_nouveau, and Mesa dri_nouveau, they don't even require any porting, but they're absolutely useless without the kernel driver, they wouldn't have anything to talk to.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#826
post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your software corrupts data when it's killed, it's honestly not very good software. I kinda wish "proper shutdown" was never invented at all. That would've motivated so many developers to care about reliability much more :P

Flash wear and disk write ack latency would shoot up the roof for that to work unfortunately.

Only if you care deeply about always having the latest data, rather than just consistent data.

I'm talking more along the lines of ZFS – I can always pull the plug without worrying about FS consistency, because the FS always goes between valid, consistent states atomically.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#827
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There needs to be a better way to discover random stuff like this.

What are you hoping for? Someone to drop down and teach you how to do everything on wayland? I have no idea how to do keyboard automation on X11 but that says nothing about X11. This is the problem the post is talking about. Every single thread about wayland is filled with “but it can’t do Y” when it is possible to do Y.

These are evdev based tools, not wayland tools.

Personally the community around wayland seems to have some toxicity in it. That is the only thing I really took from the original post.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#828
post #63
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. Sounds like a roughly equivalent situation either way? Personally I'd sooner use only Qt applications than have to use Gnome.

I’m using (except for firefox) 100% Qt applications under Ubuntu Budgie (which is a bit like elementary but with Wayland support). The result is good enough for my use case, I don’t have to deal with toy applications and I can use the full crisp resolution. And thanks to standard protocols, I can use KDE software like KDE Spectacle as screenshot tool or screensharing with Slack, Teams, Jitsi under Budgie just fine.

> I’m using (except for firefox) 100% Qt applications under Ubuntu Budgie (which is a bit like elementary but with Wayland support).

If your only non-Qt application was Firefox, what was your problem under X11? Certainly for me having to switch to Gnome's WM/panels/etc. much would be more disruptive than switching browsers. (You might find Firefox valuable enough to be worth switching your whole DE for, in which case fair enough, but I don't think it's an objective advantage for Wayland).

(IMO Konqueror is a much better browser, but I'm sure everyone has their own preferences)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are, last I looked. I used Exceed a lot. Exemplary. That program did everything nicely. I even used a CAD app on Windows that actually was built for X and it was network transparent same as any Unix box! There is a sub $100 one out there. Maybe a bit more now. Maybe gone too. It was very good. The freebies are respectable and great for sysadmin. Funding a first class X11 replacement that also does some new thin…

The only real option for a high-end Unix workstation with heavily integrated software that still exists seems to be the Mac Pro. Linux is really not comparable to IRIX. People keep saying that Wayland needs to be more of an X replacement but it's never clear what that means. You want 3D graphics over the network, that currently means Vulkan, and if you were going to do that, there doesn't seem to be much reason to ti…

I do not know what it means either. I am just gonna think out loud a bit, because I do care about this stuff. But, am also not currently impacted much. Nice place to be for me at least!

In a general sense, Wayland is not Unix like, in the same way systemd isn't. X11 is, as were various init systems. And fact is, at the time those things were done, multi user computing was a thing, and it was all done with those ideas in mind too.

At the time, micros were on the rise, and apart from a few exceptions, were single user, and started out single tasking.

Two different roots of thought, now well grown into trees that share intermixed and intertwined branches.

I know that is an issue. Whether it needs to be addressed is an ongoing matter. A matter I am happy to discuss, but not currently one that impacts me too much right now.

My focus is pretty far away from a lot of that. Doing lower level stuff, and often with no OS, embedded. So, write it, include it, port it if need be, then compile and deploy it.

Minimum requirement is gcc, command line, terminal. In all other areas, Win 10 is fine. I really could give two shits what OS it is otherwise. Machines are all fast enough, big enough, etc... good times (for me) actually.

Again, not dismissive, just not a focus at the moment. That could change and I might care a lot too. This kind of thing happens to people. Sometimes often.

When I use X, I tend to make good use of the network capability. It is the primary reason to use it, along with ways, means, tools that have worked forever. I value stuff like that very highly because I much prefer learning and using new things to me, not always remapping stuff I know cold.

For example, in the past, I have enjoyed weaving a single desktop environment from a pile of machines and software. Did that to support, sysadmin, train and develop for advanced engineering software users of all types. I had the industry on my desktop and could run or do almost anything on a variety of platforms from that desktop and the time savings on that as well as my general potency 2as off the charts good. Beat a lot of other people who did not really grok X too.

Log in and just do stuff, and depending on what gets done, a few machines, or just one gets the job done, served up to me nicely, consistently.

For a long while after IRIX was done, I used a machine as my head end. Just worked great for that kind of work. Pretty much nothing was as good since, and apps have become far less flexible too. A pile of VM's are required for that kind of thing today and it is a lot more work.

But, it is also a lot more lean hardware wise too. That is significant right now, though I do not know how significant given how cheap stuff can be.

Anyway, back to the UNIX part. Small programs, smart data, pipes, all that stuff is UNIX. X11 allows all that to travel where it needs to and it is a very nice way to work.

If one wants, everything can be distributed too:

Fonts from one box, X Server from another, application on yet another, running on shared files from yet another, window manager on yet another, etc... An Indy used to serve up its nice window manager for my Linux for quite a while, just for shits and giggles.

And that is the UNIX way.

Sometimes it is powerful. I see people struggle with managed data, engineering software, etc. for example.

under X, I just made a beefy box, one copy of the app, one database on local disk, one backup system, and on IRIX that could be done live while people are working with just a few set and forget scripts too.

Then, serve 20 to 30 users. They do not have to know anything other than how to use the app. And they can't really break it either.

Admin on that thing was mostly cake and the users could run whatever they wanted as long as it had a respectable X server, they were good to go. Few of them would even notice or care, and it worked great over 100-T networks too. Kind of crazy to think about today.

The nice thing was those users could not touch the data except through the app. This saved so. Damn. Much. Pain. Worth the whole setup right there.

So that is one case. That case made me a ton of money too. Edit: That case still happens online, but alsonsuggers from being online. Outages, updates, fails on the part of the provider, data being leveraged in distasteful ways, sometimes expensive ways.

Done local, with X? Total control. It is nice.

Application servers. Loved them. And with super expensive 5 figure software? Making that available and performant to the people who need it without all the installation hassles is golden. Really do miss that.

All very UNIXEY.

Other cases include multi head machines. Beefy machine shared by two people. Was pretty easy with X. Not sure what the state of things is today. Probably not good. Probably not needed either. We got crazy amount of capable cheap hardware these days.

Basically, X is multi user graphical computing and all that can mean.

Current display systems are not.

We have moved quite far away from multi user systems, frankly. The basics exist and work, but we have no display systems that work in the same way. And very large numbers of people do not even know how they could work too.

Honestly, that is probably the core issue in play, boiled down!

"No reason to tie it to a window system"

Well, given a multi user graphical display system, "particular" kind of becomes moot. Run the window manager you want, etc...

In any case, here is what I think will happen:

X11 has always had this basic problem. People who did not use it, or who cut their computing teeth on single user dominant computing think very differently from those who did.

And it is not just about displays. The same thing is true for the command line too. Watching people come from DOS/Windows onto a proper multi user environment showed these differences in thought to be just as stark as those same differences remain stark today in the display context.

Most people know what multi tasking is and expect it. That is the dominant mode today.

Far fewer know what multi user computing is, and again I am speaking from the perspective of someone who took full advantage of multi user computing, and in the graphical as well as the general sense.

And that is the clash, in my view. A secondary one is breakage of a lot of little time tested, production proven ways and means of doing things.

Focus follows mouse + middle button paste is amazing when working across various windows that may overlap, or exist across multiple virtual desktops, for example. I can tell you, that is a super hard one to get away from. I did, and have, but it hurt.

There is a ton of this "noise" and given the state of discussion, appears to add right the fuck up. Still.

But I am rambling:

What will happen is we will either prove out the idea of multi user graphical computing is not useful, or we won't.

If not useful, all this stuff will eventually go away and we will bring up the next set of users on whatever that paradigm looks like in the end and that is that. The rest will be history.

Sort of like how we see mobile dominant users and desktop dominant users today. And that is far from settled. Mobile is nowhere close to displacing desktop. I use both hard too. No way.

But, if what gets made really is not so superior? Like those "precious use cases" really do hold significant value? Or, even if they could, but die off for a while?

Then we will do all this over again, reinventing X11 just like people tend to reinvent UNIX.

And look at the current trend to serve it all up via browser! Seems to me a lot of great 70's era ideas had real legs.

And this will happen because tech never, ever really dies. Someone, somewhere will see it and build on it to complete and it is game on. Or, they will think that way again because the line of thought has merit.

I plan on watching it all with great interest.

Personally, I believe in multi user graphical computing and have seen, applied, and profited nicely from the value it has. Everything should go over the wire, just like everything is a file. So I have something I want to run on my phone? Just ask for it on the display I am using and go. That's X11. I think that kind of thinking is compelling and I think that because I got to do that and it was sweet compared to the usual, find it, install it, configure it, move / copy data to it mess.

Cloud computing does that with a browser nicely. But, it also means a few people get to rule the world too.

Whatever one may think of that, if we were to build multi user graphical computing in from ground zero, I believe it will endure for a long time, just like UNIX itself has. And it will because the core ideas are strong, very generally useful, etc.

We have seen this kind of thing before too. Really great ideas tend to stick around.

And this is not about the people doing Weyland not having great ideas at all. They are trying hard to bring some new ideas into play, much like the X11 people did.

Cool!

It is more about trying to convince everyone that the great ideas behind X11; namely, multi user graphical computing, aren't great, or can be replaced with something that fundamentally is not multi user graphical computing.

Given all that, Weyland NOT replacing X11 may well have set different, and maybe less conflict laden expectations.

But that would also have begged the question: what value does multi user graphical computing have? We may be in a better place had it been asked and answered.

I think it has a lot. And I think, like UNIX, it is most important that it can all be done, not so much that everyone needs to, or will benefit from doing it, or being forced to do it.

We shall see!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#830
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are (predominantly) not doing this for free. They are employed by RedHat.

Then they should pay for a RHEL subscription. That includes personal support.

RHEL 8 is on Wayland by default. If you complain about any issues whatsoever, the personal support tells you to use X.Org.
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