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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#721

Post by vetinari »

zamadatix wrote: post #698
vetinari wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Pipewire is at 0.3 today; but that's not a problem. Pipewire has the ambition to replace Pulseaudio, Jack and provide APIs for several other subject, not just screen grabbing. That's the part that is missing toward 1.0. Screengrabbing during the last year was even better than what X11 could provide, including the ability for the user to limit the grabbing to display or window. That's something that user cannot h…

Pipewire is definitely the right path when things are complete but right now you have to build with a beta version of Electron with build flags and rutime flags to use a 0.x version of Pipewire and when you do it currently only presents the option to capture the full screen. I.e. it's not that the tech stack or architecure is the wrong it's simply not done yet and not done to the point it's a bit silly to blame Slack…

> only presents the option to capture the full screen

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I had two tabs, one for picking displays and other for picking windows. Pretty much like this: https://bug1675764.bmoattachments.org/attachment.cgi?id=9186...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#722

Post by zzz143 »

dang wrote: post #665
zzz143 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Please don't use HN for personal attack, no matter how strongly you disagree with someone. We're trying for something else in this community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Which is what, exactly? Giving someone who compares disagreements over software to literal conspiracy theories a platform? The content doesn’t even fit your guidelines for intellectual interest. It’s a hateful, harmful rant with no substantive discussion. It’s literally flame bait, as evidenced by my showing up, but I don’t see you making any moves to remove the post despite it being voted up as much as my comment was. Nope, just “we are trying for something else” when someone doesn’t tow the line.

But you’re right, I’m the problem for responding to a fawning endorsement of the author with a very moderated opposing view. My bad. I’ll do better on the next account.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#723

Post by ddingus »

nitrogen wrote: post #708
ddingus wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems have crept up into new hardware, and depending on the product, "old" may be more than a decade, because users do not need new hardware and increasing numbers of them know that. Memory performance is not too big of a deal, IMHO given the last decade of hardware, but stability is. Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. I have seen 4 figure software get replaced b…

Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. This is hugely underappreciated. Last fall I decided I would get back into making videos for YouTube after 7 years away. But two videos into the new series, and the constant crashes of my video editing software I just paid $$$ for have reminded me why I stopped making videos in the first place.

Yes! I hate making videos for that reason. It is action, save, action, save, etc...

Ultra painful. And anytime I hit flow, I am either gambling by not saving and disturbing flow, or leaving flow trying to save... agreed.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#724

Post by ProZsolt »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1172/

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#725

Post by btinker »

ddevault wrote: post #615
btinker wrote: post #515

> Wayland works for almost everyone, and works for more people than is even possible with X11. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself, asshole. But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). Am I now a lier or an unimpo…

>But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME. GNOME is a dumpster fire and its premature roll-out to Fedora, Ubuntu, etc was very badly done. None of that has any bearing on Wayland, except to…

> GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME.

Yes, but I, and I believe most people talking about Wayland mean "user experience on current Wayland implementations", of course.

> None of that has any bearing on Wayland

No, Wayland is not a project that can stand for itself. It drives, needs and causes further work and implementation in compositors, Window libraries, applications, distributions, etc.

Wayland on it's own is a academic coriosity. Wayland that "works" for anyone is a interplay between diverse forms of software implemting or relying on parts of it. Getting Wayland to work is were the problems are, not in the protocol (at least I assume so, I don't have any real insight into it).

And that "Wayland stack" is not (completely) working for me.

Then again I don't post on the Wayland bug tracker, but on the gnome one and I don't want to make excuses for

> spiteful people who choose to use the botched GNOME roll-out to harass anyone who has anything to do with Wayland

Harrasment has no place in in this discussion, no matter what one thinks of Wayland.

... But op was not really about that (at least I didn't understand it like that). It was about "wayland not working" being lies and people not getting it being either malicious or so fooled they are living in a fantasy.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#726

Post by kaba0 »

dleslie wrote: post #296
ahendriksen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?

Yes, when Wayland acts like X then X apps sometimes work. In the process you abandon the security and performance features of Wayland. Getting xwayland working is another story. I can't seem to get it to work at all on my PinePhone; but to Wayland's credit, the phone crashes for all sorts of reasons.

Why would you abandon the security of wayland by an xwayland app? It only sees at most other xwayland apps.

As for the pinephone part, I may not understand your point about “to Wayland’s credit”, do you think stability issues on the pinephone is due to wayland?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#727

Post by dashboardmess »

captainmuon wrote: post #219

One thing I rarely see discussed - and one of the reasons I don't like Wayland personally - is the second order effect of putting everything in the compositor: It is now really hard to write a "window manager" or window tools. And this leads to a certain uniformity of desktop environments (the big ones, GNOME + Plasma, and then a bunch of keyboard driven minimal environments "for hackers") What I mean is, back in the…

“Putting everything in the compositor” isn’t mandated by Wayland at all, and I think only gnome does it. If you implement the protocols defined by Kwin, you can reuse everything in KDE without using it. Yes, it’s a lot of work, but properly implementing it on X11 also is more work than you would expect. The only problem here is politics, as KDE hasn’t stabilized the interface as far as I know.

Wlroots isn’t opinionated at all. In theory, it’s perfectly possible to write a gnome shell alternative using wlroots. Writing a taskbar for nearly all wlroots based compositors is also possible.

You could even write a plugin for wayfire to implement the Kwin protocols, and write another plugin to implement a simple window manager.

As for changing the titlebars, as long as you enable CSD, you could just write a theme.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#728

Post by ddingus »

cycloptic wrote: post #709
ddingus wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't. But, what does work far more frequently is to get the solution robust early. The longer it gets put off, the more difficult doing it is, both in time, cost, users being requited to do things along the way to support it all.

I agree with you, but still someone has to convince the customers to pay for that, and sometimes they won't. I've been on far too many projects where the customer won't even pay for unit tests and gets angry at the suggestion.

Well, is that a contract scenario?

If so, they can pay now, or pay later, just make sure you manage expectations so they actually do pay.

If, somehow that ended up on you, of course they refuse! Why pay for a free lunch?

So don't allow that. Seriously.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#729

Post by wander_homer »

kuschku wrote: post #719
wander_homer wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc. That's just false. Flatpak has the ability to restrict access to such resources, but it's completely up to the author of a Flatpak application if they make u…

That's true, but not really relevant. The point of flatpak is that it can sandbox applications if just the right flag is set, but this sandboxing becomes useless on X11. Long-term, all applications should strive to be properly sandboxed this way

> That's true, but not really relevant.

Of course it is. Someone who read your comment and didn't question it might now believe that Flatpaks would enforce filesystem sandboxing and prevent, say some game, from accessing their shell configuration or ssh keys. That's false and it's dangerous, because nothing is worse from a security perspective than misinformed users who have a false sense of security.

> but this sandboxing becomes useless on X11.

That's also false. For example X11 provides mechanisms like the X11 security extensions which prevent clients from accessing each others data through the X11 protocol (like key events or buffer content), which means when I run my color picker or xev in a such an X11 security context they literally stop working outside of their own window. Firejail makes this type of sandboxing easily accessible and it also provides the ability to easily isolate x11 clients with xpra or xephyr.

So it's not like it can't be done, it's just that Flatpak doesn't care about it -- which is fine. With dbus you get the same issues, because clients on the same bus aren't isolated from each other. In this instance however Flatpak cared and implemented a dbus proxy to isolate clients from each other without throwing dbus away.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#730

Post by enriquto »

kuschku wrote: post #719
wander_homer wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc. That's just false. Flatpak has the ability to restrict access to such resources, but it's completely up to the author of a Flatpak application if they make u…

That's true, but not really relevant. The point of flatpak is that it can sandbox applications if just the right flag is set, but this sandboxing becomes useless on X11. Long-term, all applications should strive to be properly sandboxed this way

> all applications should strive to be properly sandboxed this way

I agree, but definitely not this way! The sandboxing details must be 100% controlled by the user. The people who distribute the application should have no say whatsoever about their required permissions. That's ultimately for the user to decide. From the point of view of the application, all files are visible, but it may be a mock filesystem with mock resources. Letting the application distributors chose the permissions defeats the whole purpose of the sandboxing.

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