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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#701

Post by bluGill »

volgar1x wrote: post #584
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

Rule of thumb: do not listen to the vocal minority, code for all the satisfied and silent customers. Edit: unless there is a majority of unsatisfied customers (:

Listen to what the customer needs, not what they say. Change because it is really better not because it looks nicer.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#702

Post by dralley »

cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #245
DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

You're dancing around the problem: Wayland works (such as it is) by offloading functionality that was part of X to the desktop software like gnome or kde and then saying "but that's not our problem!" when something breaks. Never mind that program collection 'A' (including X11) was working and program colleciton 'B' (the Wayland way) wasn't.

That's just it, Xorg did tons of things that it never should have been involved with. It used to have a print server FFS.

Wayland is trying to do one thing well, whereas Xorg did many things poorly. It's valid to feel frustration that the community doesn't coordinate to put those APIs in place, but it's very much not valid to blame Wayland developers for it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#703

Post by kaba0 »

danShumway wrote: post #593
tlamponi wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So developers should bend to abusive business partners with a big track record off being assholes just because they are currently (!) the biggest player? > it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can run Wayland. Huh, here at work and also privately all can run Wayland just fine; just always had issues with NVIDIA, so we would see it exactly the opposite way. We vote with our wal…

> So developers should bend to abusive business partners with a big track record off being assholes just because they are currently (!) the biggest player? That's not at all what GP is saying. They're saying that X handles their use case, and Wayland doesn't, and that most end users won't care about who's fault that is. A lot of the criticism of Wayland comes from uninformed jerks who want to trash the protocol over…

> A lot of the criticism of Wayland comes from uninformed jerks who want to trash the protocol over stuff that isn't a real problem, but there is also a bit of reflexive lashing out that comes from Wayland advocates. GP is just saying they can't switch to Wayland until the ecosystem around it matures. That's not an attack, you don't have to take it personally.

Only the first group is the problem, and I think noone is bothered by the second.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#704

Post by foldr »

barrkel wrote: post #499
foldr wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing. Constructive feedback is useful, and appropriate if the creator indicates that they want it. Whining and ranting is a waste of energy. It makes people feel bad and leads to no beneficial change.…

> This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing. I don't think that's quite right. It's certainly bad manners to be rude, but the underlying complaints are one of the better - if not best - means by which the people who make the software can get feedback to ensure they're building the right thin…

I think we’re talking largely at cross purposes. It might be a good idea for maintainers of open source projects to listen to all feedback. However, nothing obliges them to do so, and you’re not entitled to be angry with them if they don’t.

If someone relies on a piece of open source software on the assumption that it will be maintained in perpetua for free, then they’re simply foolish, and they have only themselves to blame for any resulting harm.

> Not all humans are dispassionate rational agents

You seem to be forgetting that this applies just as much to the people who maintain open source projects. The endless negativity inevitably has an effect.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#705

Post by znpy »

vetinari wrote: post #599
znpy wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're a…

> ost wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. It will be said, when it comes to wayland, and they don't want to switch... but once hidpi or mixed-dpi d…

>>> most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland".

> Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true.

case in point. What do you know about my current setup for example? it works remarkably well for me.

Stop making the whole wayland thing look like a bunch of annoying people.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#706

Post by znpy »

kaba0 wrote: post #671
znpy wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're a…

Noone is bothered by the people that simply don’t care about or can’t switch. People are bothered about “why rediscover the wheel when x11 works fine, and also this whole protocol is shit because no screenshot blahblah“.

I'm sad to prove you wrong.

Look at the sibling of your comment (link for brevity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26004250).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#707

Post by Spivak »

Too wrote: post #678
Spivak wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

Most users don't know the difference, to either of those statements. For them "the internet is broken".

I don’t disagree but in a forum of tech-savvy people I expect some level of preciseness. We shouldn’t be saying Wayland sucks when we’re talking about Mutter in the same way we shouldn’t say the internet crashed when we mean Chrome crashed.

Unknowing users can freely associate Wayland with bad vibes due to how KDE and GNOME chose to brand their new compositors but we can do better.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#708

Post by nitrogen »

ddingus wrote: post #580
cycloptic wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you know this, but memory perf and stability are secondary to supporting the hard business requirements. For low-cost products intended for mass consumption, a small feature that brings in millions of new users from a new audience is usually going to be more worth it to the business than optimizing for old hardware that doesn't bring in money anymore.

Those problems have crept up into new hardware, and depending on the product, "old" may be more than a decade, because users do not need new hardware and increasing numbers of them know that. Memory performance is not too big of a deal, IMHO given the last decade of hardware, but stability is. Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. I have seen 4 figure software get replaced b…

Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally.

This is hugely underappreciated. Last fall I decided I would get back into making videos for YouTube after 7 years away. But two videos into the new series, and the constant crashes of my video editing software I just paid $$$ for have reminded me why I stopped making videos in the first place.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#709

Post by cycloptic »

ddingus wrote: post #693
cycloptic wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The team that did not make stability a priority did a lot of market building for the ones who did. I personally am very frustrated by this constantly, but there is no way around it that will always work. Someone has to pay the cost of market building, it is a separate cost from stability, and sometimes you can't afford both.

There isn't. But, what does work far more frequently is to get the solution robust early. The longer it gets put off, the more difficult doing it is, both in time, cost, users being requited to do things along the way to support it all.

I agree with you, but still someone has to convince the customers to pay for that, and sometimes they won't. I've been on far too many projects where the customer won't even pay for unit tests and gets angry at the suggestion.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#710

Post by renewiltord »

zamadatix wrote: post #658
renewiltord wrote: post #423

I hope Ubuntu stays on X because I use it with proprietary nvidia drivers and everything is very nice for me. Linux has never been better. Nouveau was pretty good but wouldn't properly handle 144 Hz. If Ubuntu keeps using X, I think I'll be fine for a while.

KDE Wayland supports the Nvidia proprietary driver, Gnome Wayland kinda supports it but is still working on it. If/when Ubuntu switches from X for Nvidia users you won't have to go to the nouveau driver.

Okay, that's great. Thanks. I hope it won't break any of the video based flows: screensharing, screencasting, etc.
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