Arrogant
I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
371–380 of 892 posts
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.
And people wonder why Linux isn't popular outside of industry and hobbyists... Like, sure, maintainers can tell all their users to sod off, but don't be surprised when very few people are left around using your software, and especially don't get confused when companies refuse to invest in Linux ports. All the successful projects Linux users like to talk about nowadays (gaming now a practical thing, new kernel feature…
> because the community itself has no discipline to see things through
Maybe discipline is a problem, but time, money and access to information is too.
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#373> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…
> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…
> I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made.
Those hundreds of user are:
1. A vocal minority, most likely. People happy about it don't go on bug trackers to support devs.
2. Not making the software, not part of the decision making process. Don't like the end result ? Fork it if you have the ability. Give constructive criticism if you want and you think the team is receptive to it (or even cares about it. Sometimes, I just don't want your genius idea).
So, yes. They're doing this for free. Don't like it? Fork it, or don't be an ass. If you can't do either of those, the third option is to fuck off.
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.
That's not strictly correct. Give the `feature/pgtk` branch from upstream a try, `make` it yourself unless your distro has a binary for it -- that (`make`'d myself) worked for me on Void Linux. There are also a few forks on GitHub with native wayland patches out there too if `feature/pgtk` doesn't.
I'm already on 28.x/native comp. Is this branch really tested and working well enough without any performance regressions? I read the LWN article about this branch and it did not increase my confidence.
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…
It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland that all the effort is duplicated in each compositor. The Wayland concept pushes out most of the work to the DEs. That of course will result in tons of predictable inconsistency, incompatibility, bugs, delays, consolidations and general pain. Wayland devs are then generally in the lazy "worksforme, use sway (or whatever)" position while the user…
> It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland
Why not have a shared implementation?
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.
I believe that this is being fixed soon if you compile Electron with "Ozone" support. Otherwise, I use the current workaround of using OBS with a "virtual webcam" which allows me to stream OBS to a webcam and just use my webcam as the screenshare. Actually ends up working better than any screenshare utility that I've used.
This doesn't seem as straightforward as 'click the screenshare button to share your screen', which is how it works in xorg mode.
Editing since I can't reply - I didn't mean to come across as rude, sorry for that. Just explaining that as a user, it doesn't work out of the box. Having to explain to users to do the above is not an ideal solution.
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…
NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.
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Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big issue is there's no discipline in the Linux community. The Kernel team has done an amazing job of preserving ABI compatibility through every last byte, but then you look at projects like glib or GNOME which seem to pride themselves on huge, sweeping, changes and don't care if downstream consumers are hurt by the changes. Edit: glib not glibc
> there's no discipline in the Linux community [...] look at projects like glibc or GNOME So not the Linux community then. Outside it. Do all the new GitHub-driven programmers who exclusively use MacBooks and constantly rev things with the same frequency not exist? Why is this still being presented as a freedesktop-related problem and not a general problem with creators' fickle and fleeting attention, when we have ev…
> So not the Linux community then. Outside it.
Sadly, that ship has passed... long ago. When you encounter a random person about "Linux", they will think of the Linux ecosystem, not just the kernel. In other words, your and GP's definition of "Linux" is different, and they are both correct depending on how would you read it.
(And before you go almighty on definitions, the majority of linguists agree to just monitor - or "describe" - the words as normally and plainly used.)
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
>In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok. I am not sure what you mean here. Weston, the original implementation, includes support…
> screensharing and RDP. Other implementations decided to implement those in a different way I'm not fully up to date on the state of these things, but if the different implementations doesn't have a common interface it's goodbye to ever having screensharing work for everyone. I think that's what the parent means. If we're lucky Discord/Zoom/etc. will implement it for the most popular compositor(s). Similarly with sc…
>if the different implementations doesn't have a common interface it's goodbye to ever having screensharing work for everyone.
No, not really. In practice what happens is Discord/Zoom/etc do implement it for the most popular compositors and then the other compositors follow suit if they want to support those applications. You would be complaining even more if they only supported weston because their screencast mechanism is pretty limited, and it would suck if the other ones just copied that.
The current "standard" is to just use pipewire and have the display server talk to the pipewire server, most commonly using xdg-desktop-portal. This is obviously outside the scope of Wayland, because any application can talk to pipewire and share/receive a video stream. I don't know about Zoom, but Chromium has support for this in the works, so Discord should get that eventually from updating their Electron: https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/26022
Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit
#380Wayland is being treated like PulseAudio and systemd before. So, it will probably win its battle, thanks $DEITY.
so, almost universally derided and a major source of division in the linux ecosystem that make it unsuitable for general consumer use?
Wow, such broad statements ("universally", "major", "unsuitable") in a single sentence and backed by …?