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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

301–310 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#301
It's really rich when these types get riled up about software having very obvious flaws. I respect the author and really want to like Wayland, but there's big things missing.

I recently installed Fedora after my Windows install bombed out after an update. I went to play World of Warcraft with my buddies and found that the mouse handling in Wayland was pretty severely broken, at least for WoW. You move by clicking both of your mouse buttons, which starts moving you forward, and then you turn your mouse to steer. Under X11, your mouse is in the same place after you release your buttons (this is the intended behavior). Under Wayland, only god knows where it's going to pop up; it seems to be following your mouse movement while you turn, but not exactly. I said "whatever, it's a good thing I don't play too much WoW" and made peace with what it was.

Then I went to share my screen. I couldn't. Total showstopper -- I use this functionality every single day, and I can't part with it. Wayland is officially off the table.

I've been using X11 since. Everything has worked perfectly. I'm not going to suffer through some software that I actually need to use under WINE having fucked up mouse handling, or hold out for multiple years before I can share my screen again. I can't imagine even attempting taking Wayland seriously if I had Nvidia hardware. If somebody's take is that I should go fuck myself for expecting things to work while they tell me that my other options are wrong and bad because it works for "most people" (which is pretty stupid -- even Average Joe has a lot of showstoppers, it's why the Year of the Linux Desktop hasn't happened), they can have fun dumping time into software that's inferior in many regards.

EDIT: in response to Drew's flagged and dead comment (which I feel is quite unreasonable, he brings up a point about the compositor having some responsibility here too) -- I am not using Wayland under GNOME -- I switched to KDE and spent a fair amount of time digging through DE, WINE, and software settings trying to get these things working. I'm willing to slog through a lot of shit to get the technically correct solution, but some bridges are too far. I'm not changing my entire DE, GPU, software choices, etc. for the sake of using Wayland, even though it's superior to X11, and I think that's what a lot of proponents of it are missing.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#302
"7 years ago" is a bit much.

Ubuntu 20.04 probably had good reasons not to ship Wayland as the default. I think this because I've had the experience of using OBS in Ubuntu 20.04-- which works-- vs OBS under Debian buster (using Wayland by default)-- which, as of two months ago, didn't. And I wasn't even looking for differences here-- just that my workflow got interrupted on Debian because of this problem. I'd wager there are surely other such outstanding issues with Wayland as the default.

The issue I ran into is being fixed-- or perhaps is already fixed-- which is great.

I'm not anti-Wayland. I'm also not a Wayland developer, or Wayland fan. All I know is it's supposed to replace another part of the stack that I don't develop or give a shit about. To the degree that things don't break when that happens, I'm happy. When they do break, I will be temporarily frustrated.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#303
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

> Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine.

In this case it's people maintaining software that I don't use telling me I'm problematic for not switching to their stack, away from existing software that works perfectly fine and is also actively maintained by people who don't call me a flat-earther. Easy choice.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#304

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> "well you don't need that anyway!" Something similar used to frustrate me no end when asking the Python community for help trying to solve a problem. Regularly someone would comment, "Why would you want to do that?". I wouldn't be asking if I didn't have a need to do it! It's bizarre that some people can't see beyond the end of their own nose and imagine different use cases to their own.

I can deal with a "Why would you want to do that?". What I cannot deal with is "It's not standard practice" kind-of answers.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#305
post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

It's probably the mixed dpi because I've been using a Qnix overclocked to 96 Hz and a Vizio at 144 Hz, both 27" 1440p for a while and I get different refresh rates and everything works normally.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sway is literally "i3, but Wayland". It is a drop in replacement.

https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/Differences-from-i3 and so thoroughly documented! /s

Unless you have nVidia graphics, sway is probably a drop in replacement for you, with minimal changes from your i3 config. You can literally cp ~/.config/i3/config ~/.config/sway/config and it will work.

If you have nVidia, you're outta luck.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

Sure, i'm willing to accept that - but is your solution for me to buy a new graphics card? How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? To be clear, i know nothing of compositors/etc, I've had nothing but problems with Xorg, and i want to use Wayland. _and yet_ - it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can r…

You can run Wayland on NVidia drivers, but then your desktop environment has to support EGLStreams, which isn't a requirement for any other drivers and as such isn't implemented in all DEs.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#308

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

At first they came for x, and I didn't speak out, etc...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#309
thats cool that its also on gemeni.

why did ubuntu use wayland and then switch back to X?

i think this is a great piece of evidence in the case for all these open source guys to stop wasting their effort on open source projects. the amount of utility that is got per unit time and effort is pathetic. its thankless, hard work that in this case will basically be rejected by the very people it was designed for.

i think a better model is something like system76 where the core developers are paid and people get really good, well integrated hardware as well.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#310
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

And people wonder why Linux isn't popular outside of industry and hobbyists... Like, sure, maintainers can tell all their users to sod off, but don't be surprised when very few people are left around using your software, and especially don't get confused when companies refuse to invest in Linux ports. All the successful projects Linux users like to talk about nowadays (gaming now a practical thing, new kernel feature…

> And people wonder why Linux isn't popular outside of industry and hobbyists

"Linux"? We're discussing a category that includes Gmail UI changes. Is Gmail not popular?

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