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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#171

Post by bionade24 »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

swaywm (Wayland) runs Krita and Steam just fine. Don't use Godot, so can't tell anything about it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#173

Post by mzi »

mindcrime wrote: post #141
kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

Now why does wayland break screenshot and keyboard tools? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or containerized applications is useless. OK, so what's the solution here? Give up on screen-shotting tools forever? Or is there a plan to fix this somehow?

I use grim[0] under Wayland, and it can grab things off my screen.

[0] https://github.com/emersion/grim

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#174

Post by londons_explore »

DCKing wrote: post #163
londons_explore wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

I completely agree. But as a user the distinction doesn't matter.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#175

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

shadowgovt wrote: post #88
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

And that punting is indicative of the problem. The reason the stacks we have are hot garbage is because they didn't have the luxury of punting on hard problems, and hard problems solved quickly make your stack hot garbage. It does give you a garbage stack that solves problems though.

I don't see how screen shots/sharing is really that hard of a problem. Wayland's model doesn't give the ability to arbitrarily capture these things the way X did, but surely it couldn't have been that difficult to add an escape hatch for common use cases like this to the base protocol.

Remote desktop is a harder problem to be sure, but it is also a pretty common use case (window remoting less so). If you're setting out to modernize and replace such a fundamental component of Linux Desktop then you should probably have a plan for that. If not in the first spec, at least a statement to the effect that it will be part of a future spec instead of just punting to "implementation defined".

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#176

Post by adkadskhj »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken?

Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early.

Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. Not exactly a "Precious use-case".

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#177

Post by zzz143 »

gspr wrote: post #165
zzz143 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say I cared. I said it was an undercapitalized endeavor partially due to infighting like this, and that sticking to it speaks for itself in terms of the goals and philosophy of a developer. I might have meant kudos for believing in something the world doesn’t and left it unspoken, for all you know, but your reaction to criticism of Drew DeVault tells me we are not discussing this on equal footing.

You sure seem to spend time and energy on something you don't care about.

Are you saying something to me or just swinging pointless comments about my motivations in my direction because I’m not fawning over Drew?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#179

Post by gspr »

mjw1007 wrote: post #133

I think Wayland has come too close to the following pattern, which I've seen in other cases of free software which have become controversial: - decide it's time to make a New Thing which will supersede the Old Thing rather than living beside it - decide that some features of Old Thing will not be directly supported by New Thing; instead New Thing will be flexible enough that people could implement those features on t…

> - decide it's time to make a New Thing which will supersede the Old Thing rather than living beside it

That doesn't really describe the situation very well, seeing as XWayland works seamlessly. Wayland compositors very much support living beside X programs.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#180

Post by Veen »

richrichardsson wrote: post #120
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> "well you don't need that anyway!" Something similar used to frustrate me no end when asking the Python community for help trying to solve a problem. Regularly someone would comment, "Why would you want to do that?". I wouldn't be asking if I didn't have a need to do it! It's bizarre that some people can't see beyond the end of their own nose and imagine different use cases to their own.

As an amateur developer, I've often found that "Why would you want to do that?" is followed by an explanation of a much better way that I hadn't even thought of. Sometimes it's asshole-behaviour, but it's often people sharing the benefit of their experience; my thinking has gone awry at some point several steps back and they want to make life easier for me.
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