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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sway exists (an almost identical i3 clone) and wlroots makes it easy for anyone to make a WM

Having a singular library is more limiting than X even for a developer of a wm and much more so to user who can no longer merely assemble an environment by setting a list of components to be started by a script.

That's exactly how I'm assembling my Sway session. My Sway config ends with `exec systemctl --user start sway-session.target`, and that target links to all the services I want running in my session (redshift, notification daemon, etc.). If you don't like systemd, you can `exec my-session-startup-script.sh` in the exactly same way.

The Sway devs maintain a list of common helper applications that work with Sway: https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/i3-Migration-Guide

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author obviously hasn’t tried plugging a high dpi monitor in to a laptop if they don’t understand what’s wrong with X. Wayland solves so many of my problems and so far the only thing it breaks is screen capture in electron apps. And not even all electron apps. Discord has no problems.

> The author obviously hasn’t tried plugging a high dpi monitor in to a laptop if they don’t understand what’s wrong with X This is the only actual, honest, problem that I've ever seen about X. Still, it does not seem a really fundamental problem, it must surely be solvable from within X? Do we really need a full-rewrite of X, unstable, with new bugs and less functionalities? (many of us don't use "desktop" applicati…

> Still, it does not seem a really fundamental problem, it must surely be solvable from within X?

X gives you two options: set DPI per displays. The thing is, you cannot drag windows between displays, the app has destroy it, connect to another one and recreate it here. There's even no mechanism to detect multiple displays other that user setting up the DISPLAY env variable.

Or you can do, as the Xorg does: use multiple screens on a single display. Here, the limitation is, that all screens have to have same DPI.

Neither of those are acceptable for modern display server.

> it will break screen capture tools,

It is a good thing that they are broken, because what they do is snooping on windows that do not belong to them. Just like it is unacceptable to integrate user address book to your app by going through its internal files, it is unacceptable to screen grab by snooping windows of other apps. In both scenarios, your app must go through API, which puts the user in the control, whether the app is allowed to do that. Wayland enforces such protocol for screen grabbing and input handling; those app who do not bother... well, the train will leave the station without them.

> other things that are dear to us like xwit, xdotool and the like

Same as previous, but for input handling.

> Just for that silly mixed-resolution screen problem?

No, there are multiple problems. For another, surely you would like screen lock that doesn't flash your desktop on unlock?

> I have observed this problem, but to me is a minor, mostly irrelevant nuisance. Losing xwit would be a major problem.

See even here on HN, it is important for many. Just few days ago there was a discussion under article about i3 and how to drag it into hidpi world in 2021. On the other hand, the mainstream user doesn't even know why they would use xwit, even if they knew it exists.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#143
post #30

I really miss the network transparency in Wayland. Just being able to start a program on another machine through an SSH session is so useful. You can use something like vnc but a "whole desktop in a window" is slower and not as handy. I'm on freebsd mostly anyway which isn't big on the Wayland train so I'm fine for now. But it would be great if X11 development would be continued.

Windows subsystem for linux literally uses RDP and wayland for single windows as its graphics subsystem. Single windows aren't a problem and "network transparency" through remote procedure calls is just anachronistic, and will never support things like animations, 3d, or video.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#144
All the things that were mentioned are annoying, but multi-touch works properly, animations are smoother and I get no screen tearing, even on a multi-GPU setup.

It's almost like different people have different priorities, who could've though?

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#145
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the open source driver when it comes to compute and 3d gaming? Just interested if it works OK.

Its extremely slow and does not support CUDA. I think the problem is nvidia blocks them somehow from changing the clock speed on the gpu so it gets stuck running in its slowest speed.

That's a shame, I enjoy playing with ML so having no CUDA available is a bit of a showstopper there.

For graphics I'd like to switch to AMD, but right now you just can't buy their higher end consumer cards.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#146

My biggest issue with Wayland is how it makes window managers a thing of the past. i3, xmonad, elightenment, ctwm, WindowMaker and dozens of others appeared only because X made it easy. Wayland makes developing window managers difficult again.

>developing window managers difficult again.

That's subjective. There are compositor libraries. It shouldn't be more difficult.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#148
post #14

Wayland fixes tons of security and inefficiency issues. You can also run xwayland, which is a compatibility layer that would fix 99% of the author’s complaints. I’m not sure there’s a legitimate case to be made against Wayland at all. The author seems to have installed it without understanding what it is.

You have a better chance of being hit by a meteor than falling victim to a compromise that would have been stopped had you only used wayland.

Also xwayland is not a fix for any of the issues identified.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sway exists (an almost identical i3 clone) and wlroots makes it easy for anyone to make a WM

Having a singular library is more limiting than X even for a developer of a wm and much more so to user who can no longer merely assemble an environment by setting a list of components to be started by a script.

I mean you just have a different library now.

You had to use xlib to access X11 too.

(and bunch of others if you wanted nice things like font scaling, clipboard etc.)

And people will probably write other libs. If nothing else I expect ... but in rust and goloang variants.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#150
post #19

> Wayland solves no issues I have This is a common sentiment, but it is kind of funny. Because software engineers working for companies will know the struggle of trying to justify reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc. but fail to see why these things are useful to them personally when the tables turn. Wayland indeed “breaks a lot of shit” but it’s not an accident or done due to incompetence. Als…

I have to agree about client side decorations. But my biggest issue (I use gnome) is that it is now the compositors job to remember window sizes and positions, and they are not doing that. I understand and agree with the reasoning that an app can't influence its environment and position itself. But someone has to do it. And automatic placement is not a substitute for remembering the users placement.
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