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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#131

Post by teekert »

So funny to read "Wayland breaks everything", yet I run it everyday (on Ubuntu), it solved my screen tearing and other than that I only switch to X for my sons Minecraft.

For me it didn't "break everything" in fact, it fixed something for me. Moreover, it seems to be more secure (which is of course something you only notice by things not happening). So such a title does not really make me want to read what is probably an emotional rant.

Edit: I see the title just changed, anyway, I think most people realize it's not 1:1 with X, which is why Canonical makes X defaults and allows me to choose easily. At some point though it will be nice, I for one like the promises of PipeWire. Why is there so much emotion involved with such projects anyway?

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#132

Post by nerdponx »

arp242 wrote: post #100
brmgb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Xorg is 16 years old Xorg is a fork of Xfree86 which started in 1991 but feature parity minus the cruft has been reached years ago. Some people disagree about what is cruft however. For example, I view 90% of the list in the posted articles to be minor softwares relying on undesirable behaviour and unwilling to adapt (the remaining 10% being misrepresentation of actually solved issues listed in bad faith). The orig…

> How can people accept to use a display manager with constant screen tearing is beside me. I never even noticed it, and I never quite understood what people are on about with this. I had to go to YouTube to watch a demo video to see what it really looks like. And if I try it, then yes, I suppose I see some tearing if I move a window and pay close attention to it. But I never even noticed on my own, and am not bother…

Same here on all points, including Youtube. I always envisioned some kind of critical graphics failure from the way people talk about it. Maybe my standards are too low.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#133

Post by canofbars »

enriquto wrote: post #97
hendry wrote: post #9

There must be a name for this phenomenon where an upgrade breaks most things. Haha. Reinvention?

Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers. Instead of solving a bug, rewrite everything from scratch and close all the bug reports of the previous, now obsolete, system. Wayland is a clear-cut example of that. Oh, mixed-resolution does not work well in X? Alright, let's rewrite everything from scratch. Of course, new bugs will appear, but then you can iterate the process to close them!

Wayland already provides a less buggy and more polished experience than X did for me. So I'd say job well done.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#134

Post by sz4kerto »

elric wrote: post #43
jchw wrote: post #19

> Wayland solves no issues I have This is a common sentiment, but it is kind of funny. Because software engineers working for companies will know the struggle of trying to justify reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc. but fail to see why these things are useful to them personally when the tables turn. Wayland indeed “breaks a lot of shit” but it’s not an accident or done due to incompetence. Als…

> [...] reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc Reducing technical debt by rewriting everything from scratch (almost?) never works. It's the baby and the bathwater. It's the sort of thing that seems attractive to junior developers, but more seasoned folks know that the legacy system contains years of embedded knowledge and workarounds for "real world" issues. The new, conceptually beautiful system…

This is not a rewrite. It's a new product that has overlapping functionality with X11.

Rewrites don't work when the following two statements are both true:

- the rewrite should achieve feature parity at a higher generaly quality

- the people who're doing the rewrite don't have most or all the knowledge that people working on the legacy system had (this could be written docs, automated tests, or just actual people hanging around)

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#135

Post by canofbars »

Nursie wrote: post #128
canofbars wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if this is really the future of desktop Linux, why doesn't it gain more momentum? Nvidia is the major blocker here and there is very little wayland devs can do to fix this. Fedora has actively discouraged using the proprietary nvidia driver for a while now and they ship wayland by default since the open source driver works fine. I saw that ubuntu is also shipping wayland by default soon for amd and intel users.

How is the open source driver when it comes to compute and 3d gaming? Just interested if it works OK.

Its extremely slow and does not support CUDA. I think the problem is nvidia blocks them somehow from changing the clock speed on the gpu so it gets stuck running in its slowest speed.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#139

Post by [deleted] »

Nursie wrote: post #128
canofbars wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if this is really the future of desktop Linux, why doesn't it gain more momentum? Nvidia is the major blocker here and there is very little wayland devs can do to fix this. Fedora has actively discouraged using the proprietary nvidia driver for a while now and they ship wayland by default since the open source driver works fine. I saw that ubuntu is also shipping wayland by default soon for amd and intel users.

How is the open source driver when it comes to compute and 3d gaming? Just interested if it works OK.

[deleted]

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#140

Post by canofbars »

enriquto wrote: post #118
canofbars wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem has been crippling the Linux desktop for many years now and it still remains unsolved in X which must indicate that either it is not realistically possible or it is so much work that no one is willing to do it and likely never will. The transition to Wayland is largely finished now. Electron added support last year and eventually the last of the electron apps will update and everything will be done other…

Wayland has existed since more than 10 years and it has still not been able to release a usable system. I'm not willing to lose things that I use everyday just because some idiots want to move their windows between screens and see that they don't change their apparent size. Seriously, this is not a crippling problem. You can easily change the size of one program once it is on the desired screen. What kind of savage k…

>Wayland has existed since more than 10 years and it has still not been able to release a usable system.

Fedora has has it on by default for about 4 years now and its perfectly usable. I use it every day.

The problem is much more serious than you are explaining. While using X, on my main monitor, UI and text becomes so small I can not even read it or click the icons. I'm not talking about the window size, but the UI and text size. With wayland the app can switch from 200% scale to 100% scale as it crosses the window border. On X you must pick either 100% or 200% and stick with it on all monitors.

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