Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today • Hacker News Board

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#201

Post by lambda_obrien » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #89

lambda_obrien wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is denying these drugs are harmful Everything is harmful when used incorrectly, but useful when used correctly. I for one think these drugs are not inherently harmful, everything has a use. Why should doctors get to be a gatekeeper of my health if I choose to self medicate?

Not only are they not inherently harmful, humans have a many millennia long history of consuming substances to alter perception. I argue that drug use is part of who we are.

Agreed, I think it's important to disrupt your normal thought process sometimes to get a new perspective that's still close to your heart, and I think there are several drugs that are good for that with little side effects when used responsibly. I think it's only in the past century that most drugs have been seen as evil, previously they were well used often for medicinal or religious or philosophical reasons.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#202

Post by totony » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #153

valuearb wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug “trafficking” should absolutely be legal. While Decriminalization is laudatory and beneficial, it solves far fewer problems than outright legalization. With decriminalization: 1) drug users will still not know what they are actually consuming. They can very easily invest drugs heavily mixed with other drugs, or dangerous chemicals. This will lead to far higher levels of accidental overdoses and is a path to more…

Whenever I see these discussions I only ever see the drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing and distribution and never the drawbacks of legalization. An honest analysis would acknowledge the drawbacks of legalization too. It's difficult to tell exactly what the long term consequences of complete drug legalization are, and I guarantee there are some negative consequences. For example, legalization might reduce th…

>I had a friend from high school who was addicted to heroin. When he ran out of money he was willing to mug old ladies to come up with the cash for more. If heroin were instead legal... why wouldn't he just steal directly from the legal distribution source now that the threat of violence is no longer there?

That seems like more of a net positive IMO. Theft of institutions must be less deadly/detrimental than the alternative. Even if people were to steal more from (say) Walmart than rob grandmas, it'd still be positive.

>And a net increase in usage will cause some % increase in DWI rates, overdose rates, health care impact, etc.

This might not be the case because of increase purity/social and institutional support because of destigmatization/re-invested profits taken from taxing the product.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#203

Post by brewdad » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #169

sandworm101 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But I've been pulled over So you did get pulled over. So you were in detention/arrest (insert lawyer debate here) as in you were physically stopped. At that point the cop can search your car. He probably did. He almost certainly looked in the back seat and counted the number of passengers/objects there, something he could not do as you sped by. He then examined your life in that he looked to see if you had outstan…

"Speeding, being a crime, allowed him to do these things that parking tickets do not." That's not entirely true (excluding the pat down). The "search" you are talking about is simply plain sight/smell/etc. A cop writing a parking ticket can look through the window of your car and run the plates to see if it's stolen, lacking registration, etc. In either case they need probable cause to do an actual search of your veh…

Funny enough, DUI checkpoints are illegal in Oregon.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#204

Post by xyzzy123 » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

travbrack wrote: post #180

notJim wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to favor full legalization, but now I think it's a bad idea. If you can simply go to a store to buy heroin (like you can with weed in many places now), I think we will inevitably have more heroin addicts. People will get addicting just trying it out, and get addicted because they are self-medicating. There are middle-grounds between full legalization and full prohibition. It seems obvious that prohibition has…

Don't you think most people who would be interested in buying heroin in the store can already get it?

I think oxycontin is an interesting example.

A lot of people got (get) "incidentally" addicted, due to overprescription / easy supply.

Regulatory failure and corruption didn't help, of course.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#205

Post by tyingq » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #46

Just to make things clear, decriminalization is not legalization. Drugs are still illegal, and users risk a $100 fine, especially if they are uncooperative. The difference is that it is now a civil violation instead of a crime, so no record, no jail time, kind of like a parking ticket. Drug trafficking is still a crime.

Here's what's meant by "a small amount" in Oregon law:

  Less than 1 gram of heroin.
  Less than 1 gram, or less than 5 pills, of MDMA.
  Less than 2 grams of methamphetamine.
  Less than 40 units of LSD.
  Less than 12 grams of psilocybin.
  Less than 40 units of methadone.
  Less than 40 pills of oxycodone.
  Less than 2 grams of cocaine.

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2021/01/31/what-...

Also interesting from that article is that the law changes things for "reasonable suspicion", so they may see fewer arrests for more than one reason.

"This prevents law enforcement from then searching vehicles because they can't develop reasonable suspicion, which is the grounds that allows them to ultimately continue to search for evidence of a crime, Parosa said."

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#206

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

m463 wrote: post #199

rootusrootus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you pump your own gas? Oh stop it, that's not nice. We are slowly, slowly increasing the ability for people to pump their own gas. Right about the time nobody needs to pump gas any more, we will fully legalize it. We also have no sales tax, and I consider that a pretty big plus.

So sorry, that was not a jab. I was just listing differences off the top of my head. It does look that way and of course it's not editable now, bleh.

No worries, I was only mock-offended. We are used to being taunted about the self-service gas law, and everyone I know who lives here would like to see it changed.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#207

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

throwaway2121bx wrote: post #143

rootusrootus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there will be some consequences. But think about all of the people who won't enter adulthood already excluded from the (good) job market because they have a criminal record? I feel pretty confident that this law is going to be a net positive.

Full agreement that it's a net positive. Nobody should ever get a criminal record for using. I just hope that the messaging is clear that because its legal/decriminalized doesn't mean its good for you.

Totally agree. Especially since I have two children rapidly entering that phase of their lives when they will be exposed to the most peer pressure. I hope we take a bunch of the money we'll save on useless enforcement and put it towards education, in addition to rehab and other diversion programs.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#208

Post by brewdad » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

travbrack wrote: post #180

notJim wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to favor full legalization, but now I think it's a bad idea. If you can simply go to a store to buy heroin (like you can with weed in many places now), I think we will inevitably have more heroin addicts. People will get addicting just trying it out, and get addicted because they are self-medicating. There are middle-grounds between full legalization and full prohibition. It seems obvious that prohibition has…

Don't you think most people who would be interested in buying heroin in the store can already get it?

Sure, but there's a huge difference between meeting up with "a guy" in secret to buy it versus popping into the shop and picking some up while running errands.

There's also an implied suitability in the sense that "stores wouldn't be allowed to sell if it was really that harmful". This may or may not be true but it certainly impacts our cultural mindset around alcohol.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#209

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

Noos wrote: post #122

rootusrootus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decriminalizing possession doesn't make burglary legal.

Decriminalizing possession doesn't stop the need for people to steal to afford drugs, though. It also means people who do them will only interface with the criminal justice system when they commit these kinds of support crimes. They won't get scooped up for a lesser offense, yes. But if anything, it means when they do get scooped up it will be for a worse one, and it will happen.

I'm having a hard time seeing, though, that it will really change the number of drug users substantially. So the ones who were going to resort to burglary still will, and we will catch them and put them into the criminal justice system. But the users who manage to be otherwise gainfully employed (or at least self-sufficient enough without crime), we can forget about.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#210

Post by JulianMorrison » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #205

GuB-42 wrote: post #46

Just to make things clear, decriminalization is not legalization. Drugs are still illegal, and users risk a $100 fine, especially if they are uncooperative. The difference is that it is now a civil violation instead of a crime, so no record, no jail time, kind of like a parking ticket. Drug trafficking is still a crime.

Here's what's meant by "a small amount" in Oregon law: Less than 1 gram of heroin. Less than 1 gram, or less than 5 pills, of MDMA. Less than 2 grams of methamphetamine. Less than 40 units of LSD. Less than 12 grams of psilocybin. Less than 40 units of methadone. Less than 40 pills of oxycodone. Less than 2 grams of cocaine. https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2021/01/31/what-... Also interesting from that ar…

I'm wondering how they measure those. Like, one gram of dried mushroom is a whole heck of a lot smaller than the pile of mushrooms you'd need to get one gram of extractable psilocybin.