Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today • Hacker News Board

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#91

Post by ogre_codes » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

aksss wrote: post #62

ogre_codes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oregon is basically saying "go ahead, it's fine, use these drugs". Not at all. Oregon is saying they are going to stop using police resources to punish people for self-destructive behavior. Most drug users are struggling to begin with. Adding prison time for something which is not hurting others is cruel. > The next obvious step is to legalize all drugs, and let these lobbies profit off the back of addicts and thei…

The idealist in me wants to agree, but drug use does often hurt others by way of crime, social disfunction and destroying family relationships/unity (which is a hurt that can affect a subsequent generation at least). Not always, but often. The self-contained, highly functional, occasional heroin user is real but there are plenty that do not live up to the expectation of being responsible drug users. Prison works as a…

Just keep in mind, we're not legalizing drugs.

Possessing small quantities is no longer a crime.

The state can still crack down on dealers and supply chains. They can also prosecute for related crimes.

We've had this weird state for a long time where it is legal to own and abuse anti-depressants and opioids, but you can go to prison for a long time for owning small quantities of far less destructive/ addictive drugs like LSD.

This brings things back into a bit of parity.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#92

Post by notJim » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

GuB-42 wrote: post #46

Just to make things clear, decriminalization is not legalization. Drugs are still illegal, and users risk a $100 fine, especially if they are uncooperative. The difference is that it is now a civil violation instead of a crime, so no record, no jail time, kind of like a parking ticket. Drug trafficking is still a crime.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

It actually seems really problematic for drug trafficking to be a crime while consumption is decriminalized. It creates an easier market for organized crime to sell into, which reduces their risk. IMO instead we should do something along the lines of allowing doctors to prescribe pure versions of illegal drugs to people who are addicted. Then the drugs can be made by legitimate firms that can be regulated heavily.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#93

Post by DanBC » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #72

recursive wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drinking a six-pack at a time does sound kind of binge-y to me.

Start with dinner at 6 and go to bed at 9 and that's 2/hr. Not exactly keg stands and jungle juice territory. The human body processes 1-2 drinks/hr so at the end you'll have a buzz on the order of one stiff mixed drink (~3-4 shots of stuff in the 40% ballpark spread out over a tall glass of sugary fruity stuff). Edit: And since apparently this needs saying "drink" = "the standard alcohol/drink unit that all the prof…

In the UK "binge" is defined as

> 8 units of alcohol in a single session for men

> 6 units of alcohol in a single session for women

Assuming the beer is 5% you'd need to drink 1.6 litres to hit 8 units of alcohol. If each can / bottle is 330 ml that's 1.9 litres.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#94

Post by ogre_codes » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

cylon13 wrote: post #85

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

Why should we force drug trafficking in to the underground, creating a black market and all the murder that comes with enforcing contracts within it, when people are just going to buy and consume drugs anyway? Because drugs are bad for you? The trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

Mostly agree. I think a lot of drugs should be legalized.

Some which I think are addictive/ destructive enough where they should be kept illegal. Bath salts, crack cocaine, are good examples of the latter.

I also think we should be deliberate in how we tread this path.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#95

Post by ttul » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

GuB-42 wrote: post #46

Just to make things clear, decriminalization is not legalization. Drugs are still illegal, and users risk a $100 fine, especially if they are uncooperative. The difference is that it is now a civil violation instead of a crime, so no record, no jail time, kind of like a parking ticket. Drug trafficking is still a crime.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Criminalization of drug production and distribution has been an abject policy failure from the start. Ending the criminalization of drugs and bringing all drugs into a regulatory framework that is guided by health outcomes rather than the one-size-fits-all goal of eradication is the only path that has a hope of reducing the harms associated with the hardest of drugs.

You can't stop people from using even the most devastating drugs simply by making drugs illegal to produce and distribute. There will always be someone willing to take the risk, regardless of the penalties. Criminalization is the WORST form of regulation. Instead of ending up with a dangerous, yet pure product, from a trusted, regulated supplier, you end up with an impure and potentially deadly product from an unregulated and completely untrusted supplier.

You can judge drug users all day long, but they're going to seek these drugs regardless of the prohibitions. And there will always be a criminal willing to supply the addiction, because the demand is 100% inelastic (i.e. totally unrelated to price).

Drug criminalization has created a $400B global market that fuels terrorism, human trafficking, child exploitation, and the destruction of democracy in many corners of the world.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#96

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

cylon13 wrote: post #85

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

Why should we force drug trafficking in to the underground, creating a black market and all the murder that comes with enforcing contracts within it, when people are just going to buy and consume drugs anyway? Because drugs are bad for you? The trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

[deleted]

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#97

Post by ttul » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

cylon13 wrote: post #85

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

Why should we force drug trafficking in to the underground, creating a black market and all the murder that comes with enforcing contracts within it, when people are just going to buy and consume drugs anyway? Because drugs are bad for you? The trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

"Bath salts" are popular because far better alternatives are illegal... If pure meth, cocaine, heroin, MDMA, and other "hard" drugs were made available in a regulated format, many destructive and dangerous alternatives would no longer have a market.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#98

Post by ogre_codes » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #87

ogre_codes wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends if it's piss-water or a quality stout or IPA.

A six pack of piss-water is still 12 units of alcohol, definitely far above what one should regularly consume if you want to minimize health risks: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/alcohol-support/calculating-alc... My whole life I’ve been watching the “safe” amount of alcohol go down and down, study after study. The idea of casually drinking multiple beers after work every day is crazy to me.

Oh if we're talking about health, it's a whole other question. I was just looking at the effects of alcohol consumption.

Drinking a six pack of anything every night is likely the sign you are an alcoholic.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#99

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #58

The not-homeless, not-drug-addict rest-of-society is already well on its way with its response...gated communities. No homeless, no open drug use...all protected by private property laws and private security. Get ready for more of them. It doesn't matter what laws you will pass, you don't get past the front gate unless your card scans. In the end, the only people who will be forced to look at open drug use and homele…

Gated communities are quite rare in Oregon. Sure, they exist, but they are very much the exception. Even in areas with multi-million dollar homes (this ain't California, remember ;-)), the roads are usually public (or private but ungated). I can't see simple drug decriminalization changing that here, and I haven't seen anything to suggest a desire to head that way.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#100

Post by jjeaff » Mon, Feb 01, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #92

ogre_codes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

It actually seems really problematic for drug trafficking to be a crime while consumption is decriminalized. It creates an easier market for organized crime to sell into, which reduces their risk. IMO instead we should do something along the lines of allowing doctors to prescribe pure versions of illegal drugs to people who are addicted. Then the drugs can be made by legitimate firms that can be regulated heavily.

Reducing risk for traffickers is probably a good thing. Because it will flood the market with competitors. Organized crime thrives because of the risk, not in spite of it. They are the only ones willing to take the risk, so they own the market.