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Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

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181–190 of 403 posts

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#181
post #139

This is mostly nonsense. There is nothing wrong with there being more shares short than shares outstanding. It just seems problematic, until you think it through. Person A has 1 share of company Y. Person B borrows 1 share of company Y from person A, and then sells it into the market. This is called a short sale. But person B just sold their borrowed share. Now that share is owned by person C. Person C can now lend i…

> This is mostly nonsense.

Agreed. People should be able to take the pessimistic side of a trade.

The one problem I could see with short selling is not the technical act of selling short, but the (dis)information campaign around a company that appears to follow. But, this happens both ways good and bad so it's probably a wash.

> Most of Wall Street hates short sellers, because they drive down the prices of companies and confidence in markets

There's also an emotional dislike of the person who wins when you lose. Short sellers are like the person playing 'don't pass' in craps.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#182
post #171
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely sell 5 bananas 500 times. You can't have 500 net buys (i.e. someone is 'long 500 bananas', or 500 people 'long' 1, etc.), but sales, fine!

>You can absolutely sell 5 bananas 500 times. But that is not the point. The point is you had 5 bananas to sell and 500 people who bought 1 banana each. Now all 500 monkeys wants its dinner so please deliver. If you can't it is fraud. The mental gymnastics in the stock market are insane. More shares have been sold than exists. That has nothing to do with the amount of times they were sold.

If it's the same banana, that's fine.

If it's supposed to be a different banana, that's the 'net buys' scenario I described and is not fine, that would indicate naked (which is illegal other than by MMs) short banana selling.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#183
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What your describing still sounds incredibly dodgy. The price of anything is a result of its some intrinsic value and the volume of supply. So a precious stone is valuable because of its beauty, but also because it's rare. If someone mines a billion such stones, it won't affect their individual beauty, but it will certainly reduce the price someone is willing to pay for one. Now, you seem to be saying that short sell…

It doesn't inflate the supply, because the amount of people who own the share is equal to the number of actual shares, plus the number of people who are short the share. All the people who are short the share have to buy it back in the future. So the additional supply has exactly been matched by additional demand. What you are saying is like saying that lending money to your friend creates inflation by expanding the…

Well, lending new money (i.e. an increase of lending over previous lending) does expand money supply and create inflation. If we look at the macroecomic aspects of money supply, most of current money supply is created through lending.

The key difference in your estimates of supply is that you include the future repayments of current lending, but ignore future lending. The general assumption in macroecomics is that we don't treat such lending as isolated one-off events, but as a sum of ongoing activity by many people, continuing forever at a stable level unless some event affects it.

Assuming that the principles governing lending don't change, the future repayments are balanced by payouts of new loans at that point of time, and the current payouts (if they are greater than current repayments of past debt, i.e. there's a net increase) are not balanced and thus increase the supply. If at some point the fundamentals change so that the lending decreases or stops then that event would decrease supply back to where it was.

I.e. if you often lend money to your friends so that usually someone or someone else owes you $10, then this lending is not a change and does not affect supply, but if you did not loan money and now you start lending, then that $10 is an increase in money supply.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#184
post #161
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s not just “1 stock.” Let’s say: A loans a share to be B who sells to C who loans to D and so on. You end up with a multiplier on nominal stock, always, and that’s perfectly normal. I really don’t understand the moralistic argument here, esp. without regard to the underlying value of the original asset. Up is not strictly good.

No matter how many times it gets repeated in the thread it is still nonsense made up by the stock market. Exchange "Share" with "Burger" and see how many Burgers you can create from thin air. If you end up with more than one you should start a McDonald's competitor! If you can't it is because you are making mental gymnastics as soon as the word is some magical word Wall Street made up. Sure it is correct that you can…

Ok, I've done it. I told my children that I'm going to take them to McDonald's tomorrow evening. They see this promise as 100% good, as real as if they were actually holding the burger. The only difference from their point of view, is that if they were holding a physical burger now, by tomorrow evening it would be cold and bad to eat. The ones I have promised them are real burgers which are deliverable tomorrow evening, at the time we're going to want to eat them. So I've created two additional burgers owned by my children, in addition to all the physical burgers that currently exist, which are owned by either McDonald's, if they haven't been sold yet, or by customers if they have.

Does this mean that I've found an infinite supply of free burgers and should go into competition with McDonald's? No. Because I'm going to have to buy the burgers from McDonald's to supply to my children. They own two new paper burgers, but I'm short two burgers. So the net total world supply of burgers is unchanged.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#185
Wow, it seems like none of the top commenters here have put in at least minimal effort to read and understand this.

The author does not complain about short sellers per se or about the fact that more than 100% of a stock's float can be shorted. That is all nice and fine. Instead what the author does complain about is that fact that the (supposedly regulated) mechanisms for shorting a stock are fraught with loopholes and exceptions that make it possible for brokers and the DTC to create stocks "out of thin air" for the short sellers and never neutralize. This dilutes the company's stock in the process and thereby damages the company's shareholders.

It is an issue that, if true, should absolutely be brought to public and regulator's attention.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#186
post #139

This is mostly nonsense. There is nothing wrong with there being more shares short than shares outstanding. It just seems problematic, until you think it through. Person A has 1 share of company Y. Person B borrows 1 share of company Y from person A, and then sells it into the market. This is called a short sale. But person B just sold their borrowed share. Now that share is owned by person C. Person C can now lend i…

> This is mostly nonsense. Agreed. People should be able to take the pessimistic side of a trade. The one problem I could see with short selling is not the technical act of selling short, but the (dis)information campaign around a company that appears to follow. But, this happens both ways good and bad so it's probably a wash. > Most of Wall Street hates short sellers, because they drive down the prices of companies…

> this happens both ways good and bad so it's probably a wash.

Absolutely. A real problem in things that aren't publicly traded on open markets is hype asymmetry. Somebody who wants the share price to go up can put enormous amounts of time and money into creating the appearance that the stock is worth more than it is. But there's no corresponding incentive to puncture the hype.

I suspect every one of us can name a privately held startup with a valuation we think is absurdly high. But there's no practical way to bet against them until they're publicly traded and we can short them or buy options (which may get hedged by buying or (short) selling stock).

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#187
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's what I thought the argument was until this bit - > Same if you bought a stock, and your broker suddenly decides to steal it without your knowledge, and loan it out in order to sell it in the hopes of earning money if its value drops (i.e. short the stock). Clearly you'd want to know if your property is being loanded out, because it means that you're incurring risk, no matter if you're compensated for it…

That has nothing to do with legal fungibility, and everything to do with property rights, and the conditions at which most people expect to buy a stock (licensing notwithstanding). Fungibility is merely how easily the medium is broken into smaller parts that may be exchange for convenience, and not the regulated use of third parties, unless you're really talking about liquidity. The latter can easily be solved with w…

>Fungibility is merely how easily the medium is broken into smaller parts that may be exchange for convenience

No, fungibility is whether an asset (ie. individual assets within a particular class of asset) is interchangeable with one another.

It means when you deposit banknotes into your bank, whether the bank has to give you the same banknotes with the same serial number, or whether they can give you equivalent instruments to satisfy their obligation to you. What they owe you aren't the banknotes, but instead the money.

Also note when you deposit money into a bank, it's not treated the same way as if you put banknotes in a safe deposit box. The way you made your argument on stock brokers is as if it is, and fundamentally misrepresents this relationship. They don't owe you 'your' shares, they owe you a number of shares. Your shares become their asset, in exchange for their liability to you. You don't get to control what they do with their assets.

That's also the reason you don't get to control what the bank does with 'your' money you hold with them, because legally, it's their money with an obligation to pay you when requested. Hence the central bank steps in to regulate and guarantee fractional reserve banking in order to prevent bank runs.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#188
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the situation being discussed, where more shares than the available float are shorted, they are functionally the same because both can theoretically create infinite amounts of shares.

Both look like they "create shares" but the consequences are different. Don't you agree? Would you rather be the Carol who bought the XYZ stock that Alice lent to Bob or the other one? Proper-shorting-scenario Carol owns a perfectly good XYZ share. What does naked-shorting-scenario Carol have?

What do you mean by consequences?

In the naked short scenario you don't immediately have the share, though I'm unsure how important this is for someone shorting the stock.

In saying that, brokers can still fail to deliver the share with non-naked shorting in which case it is effectively a naked short.

In the case of $GME, there were a lot of shares that failed to deliver in December as shown in this /r/wallstreetbets post: https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/l97ykd/the_...

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#189
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't inflate the supply, because the amount of people who own the share is equal to the number of actual shares, plus the number of people who are short the share. All the people who are short the share have to buy it back in the future. So the additional supply has exactly been matched by additional demand. What you are saying is like saying that lending money to your friend creates inflation by expanding the…

Well, lending new money (i.e. an increase of lending over previous lending) does expand money supply and create inflation. If we look at the macroecomic aspects of money supply, most of current money supply is created through lending. The key difference in your estimates of supply is that you include the future repayments of current lending, but ignore future lending. The general assumption in macroecomics is that we…

> Well, lending new money (i.e. an increase of lending over previous lending) does expand money supply and create inflation.

You are talking about lending by banks, and/or the central bank, which is quite clearly money creation.

New lending of your money to your friend does not create additional money.

There's also a word game going on here. What you are describing is a situation where I lend money to my friend, and for the purpose of your analysis, you assume that I will always have lent out a similar amount of money forever starting now.

That's fine if that's what you want to analyse. But that isn't the situation I described.

Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation

#190
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is fungible, but it's unclear whether stocks should be fungible in the same way.

Companies are allowed to issue non-fungible shares. Eg it's common in some tech companies to give the founders super-voting stock that reverts to normal stock on sale.

Yes, but assets that are traded within a particular financial market is fungible.

When you buy a share from the open market, they are not going to guarantee a particular share with a particular serial number you specify, they will only provide a number of that particular class of share of the company.

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