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Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
131–140 of 403 posts
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#132Very, very much a crank site. One pinch fact, two cups of confusion, and generous splash of seething rage. It's interesting in much the way the Timecube site is interesting...and is informative about financial markets in much the same way the Timecube site is as well.
This entire topic has been poorly addressed. I don’t think I’ve had stronger Gell Mann vibes on HN than I’m having with this story.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#133Very, very much a crank site. One pinch fact, two cups of confusion, and generous splash of seething rage. It's interesting in much the way the Timecube site is interesting...and is informative about financial markets in much the same way the Timecube site is as well.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does it matter? 1 stock = 1 stock. 1 stock should never be 2 stocks. It’s because I believe in ownership of what you make. If you founded a company, sold 10% on public markets for float, and magically 20% of your cap table now exists on the NYSE; something is horrifically wrong. And yes, you would have suffered negative financial outcomes because of the counterfeiting.
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Nonetheless it's bit of a hard sell as it seems to parallel fractional reserve banking to a degree, and we've come to accept the later as the best currently available compromise.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but you are basically arguing against the idea of fungibility in finance. It's one of those fundamental concepts that banking is built on. It's one thing to argue for making sure shorts are well-regulated, but this something entirely different that has the risk of fundamentally breaking our society.
I don't think he is arguing against fungibility. In fact, he compared stocks and cash under the assumption of fungibility. I think he is arguing against the idea of applying fractional reserves to brokers.
> Same if you bought a stock, and your broker suddenly decides to steal it without your knowledge, and loan it out in order to sell it in the hopes of earning money if its value drops (i.e. short the stock). Clearly you'd want to know if your property is being loanded out, because it means that you're incurring risk, no matter if you're compensated for it through interest or not.
I can't find any other interpretation for this logic and terminology other than a rally against fungibility.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
This entire topic has been poorly addressed. I don’t think I’ve had stronger Gell Mann vibes on HN than I’m having with this story.
I looked up Gell Mann but I still have no idea what you meant by that.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
This doesn't distinguish between shorting and naked shorting. But in either case I don't understand why I'm supposed to be upset. Is it because the stock price goes down?
Does it matter? 1 stock = 1 stock. 1 stock should never be 2 stocks. It’s because I believe in ownership of what you make. If you founded a company, sold 10% on public markets for float, and magically 20% of your cap table now exists on the NYSE; something is horrifically wrong. And yes, you would have suffered negative financial outcomes because of the counterfeiting.
Horrifically wrong! Heavens to Betsy!
What went horrifically wrong is the company went public with a clueless CFO. For all corporate actions—reporting, dividends and buybacks—that additional float is meaningless. It’s only relevant for short-term holders and short-term metrics.
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#138>"At any given point in time more than 100 emerging companies are under attack as described above. [...] The success rate for short attacks is over ninety percent"
he/she can only find two examples (Global Link and TASER), which is a bit odd.
In any case, there is a connection to the current narrative of "short sellers are evil". But "the shorts" or "they" is one of these "us vs them" constructs that does not exist in any meaningful way.
Even worse, there is a common notion on r/WSB that "the shorts" are also "the suits" and there will be some rough awakening when folks find out that Wall St made more money on $GME than Main St, and that is on the long side, before any dip in share price!
By the way, this awakening might never happen and there is a scenario where we will never find out who traded what on $GME, because transparent transaction data is not publicly available. Thinking back about the 2010 flash crash [1] we still don't know with certainty what exactly happened.
Grant Williams did a podcast about the current events [2] and I can only recommend it (also check out his Endgame series).
There certainly are unethical sellers of stock (see e.g. Jim Cramer video where he talks about manipulation) but I have yet to see convincing evidence that unethical or fraudulent behaviour is more common on the short than long side.
There was a recent poll on Fintwit to name examples where "short attacks" hurt companies, and the paucity of meaningful examples further confirmed the above point (can't find reference due to crappy Twitter search).
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#139Person A has 1 share of company Y. Person B borrows 1 share of company Y from person A, and then sells it into the market. This is called a short sale. But person B just sold their borrowed share. Now that share is owned by person C. Person C can now lend it back out to person D, or to person B again, and the process can repeat infinitely. The idea that short interest is constrained by shares outstanding is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the short market works.
Shorting behaves the same way that fractional reserve banking does, and there is a 'money multiplier' like leverage effect in the process. There is nothing nefarious about this, and it certainly isn't 'countfeiting'. Short sellers provide an important service to capital markets, maybe the most important service: they help to identify mismanaged or fraudulent companies. The idea that attacking short sellers is attacking wall street is completely backwards. Most of Wall Street hates short sellers, because they drive down the prices of companies and confidence in markets (in the short run, in the long run, they increase it).
Re: Counterfeiting Stock – Explaining illegal naked shorting and stock manipulation
#140The author seems to be really upset about this, but I don't understand why. Nothing they are describing, if you ignore histrionic language like "counterfeiting", seems especially nefarious. Maybe I am misunderstanding. Basically, a short is when A borrows from B a share of corporation C with the promise to return a share of corporation C at a later time, plus some cash interest. A naked short is where instead B gives…
If there are 5 bananas in the entire world and people are still allowed to pretend and sell 500 bananas - you dont see how this is a problem? Have you actually thought this through?
If Bob has one of the five bananas but sells Alice a contract for delivery of 500 bananas and then can't make good on his promise, then Bob has screwed only himself, because now people know that Bob's bananas are only worth 0.002 of other people's bananas. Even if Bob finds another rare banana he won't be able to sell it for anywhere near it's true value.
Critically, Bob has only devalued his own banana contracts.
In the meantime, Alice has only the one banana she bought from Bob, and she spent all her savings on that banana, thinking she'd get 500 of them.
But Alice is clever. She has a plan for making back her savings. Alice sells 10 bananas for future delivery to Cecil. Alice plants the one banana she bought from Bob. And sure enough, come delivery time, Alice picks the bananas from her tree and delivers them to Cecil. Cecil, in turn, sold 20 fruit salads for future delivery to other people -- that's how she afforded the banana contract from Alice.
Two observations I want you to make:
1. The one bad actor screwed himself out of the market in no time at all.
2. The 22 good actors managed to allocate capital effectively where it would do the most good for everyone, and allowed entrepreneurs of very little means to start profitable businesses.
Derivatives trading is very resource efficient and has made modern society possible. It has a few drawbacks but they are self-correcting.
There are problems, but they are not with derivatives trading.
Edit: And keep in mind that Bob's banana contracts are not worth anything compared to other people's bananas, but they are still not completely worthless. If Dave owes Erica 50 of Bob's banana contracts, Dave will find it easy to repay them: you can trade almost anything for a Bob banana contract.