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gemini:// space

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Re: gemini:// space

#61

Post by mysterydip »

jl6 wrote: post #57
senkora wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that that complexity should be handled by the screenreader through heuristics rather than the .gemini format itself, based on the desire to keep basic clients very simple (~100 loc). But that’s a really good point!

Gemini does support a `lang` parameter to its mime types, which can be used to indicate a document is in a mixture of languages. That could be enough of a hint for a client to tune its pronunciation. I do agree though that this is a far bigger problem space than HTML's `lang` attribute is capable of solving. It's not like knowing the language of the text always tells you the unique pronunciation of a string of charac…

Fair point, for example is it read or read? Maybe a better option would be a phonics tag or attribute followed by phonemes that no matter the language of the following word(s) would be able to be spoken by a reader?

Re: gemini:// space

#62

Post by knowledge-clay »

h_anna_h wrote: post #59
knowledge-clay wrote: post #34

Gemini is fantastic. For anyone interested in experimenting with it without setting up a server, I've been working on a simple Gemini site builder that works over HTTP and serves the content via Gemini and HTTP proxy: https://flounder.online/ In my view, Gemini's bare-bones text format is its killer feature. Non-technical users have been able to easily write Gemtext based on a few examples and a bit of experimentatio…

> No other "alt web" technology approaches the internet with such extreme and radical skepticism Except hypercore/dat, ipfs, freenet, tor, i2p, gnunet, ...

I deleted that part of my comment because it wasn't my main point

Re: gemini:// space

#64

Post by dancek »

prepperdev wrote: post #3

Gemini is a cool piece of simple tech. I had a genuine pleasure reading the spec: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.html I've entertained an idea to build a set of tools for contemporary development (version control, code review, CI, etc) which would only speak Gemini. That would be both the UI and the API. Blockers came fast: * no way to upload anything that exceeds 1024 bytes, * escaping is subtly…

True, text/gemini is not really suitable for UIs. I did write a wiki engine where the editing is done with sed commands and all responses are text/gemini. It works but people used to modern web apps are not going to love the UX.

You can serve other mimetypes over gemini (the protocol). That's useful for some use cases (eg. ansi.hrtk.in serves modem download emulated versions of ANSI art; requires a streaming-capable client).

But all in all, Gemini tries hard to not be an application platform. These exercises in stretching the limits are fun and IIRC have also guided the development of the spec. But the focus of the project is on text-based content.

Re: gemini:// space

#65

Post by simias »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12

I really like the idea of having a more bare-bones text-only web, but I can't get onboard with Gemini until it offers the same support for screenreaders as HTML. (For example, an equivalent of span lang=XX tags is missing, so if you quote a foreign-language word(s) in your text, you can't let screenreaders know what language to read it in). The visually impaired should not be second-class citizens in any new internet…

Multilingual accessibility seems to be a niche within a niche. I'm bilingual but I seldom read mixed-language content. And even when I do I wonder how often the author can/bothers to include the markup for it.

If I write "ceci n'est pas du français" here for instance it'll remain untagged.

I think the only websites where you can reliably expect the text to be tagged correctly are dictionaries and the like, where it can be done unambiguously and at scale (wiktionary seems to do it for instance: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coin ). In these case it seems like it could genuinely be useful.

I've also looked at a few language learning apps (such as Duolingo) and none of them appear to use the lang attribute at all, even though it seems like it would be a perfect use case for it.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure it's fair to blame a format that strives to be minimalist for having such a shortcoming for lacking such a very specific feature.

Of course if you're a blind linguist you might have a very different opinion on the subject...

Re: gemini:// space

#66

Post by craigsmansion »

h_anna_h wrote: post #25

I don't understand why the gemini people don't just use http 1.0 (+ host) with html (or plaintext/markdown/whatever even, without js/css). Seems like a case of NIH to me. Don't get me wrong, I am not against "reinventing the wheel" for a toy project or to learn but gemini seems to have become more popular than just that. If someone is really tired of the modern web I would suggest to them a distributed alternative ra…

> I don't understand why the gemini people don't just use http 1.0

Think of it as cars and bicycles: why do people use bikes if cars already exist?

- because it's healthier

- because given a proper infrastructure it's more pleasant (and probably safer)

Of course one can ride one's bike on most car oriented infrastructure, but it's nice to know you're not going to be hit by a truck if you make a turn somewhere.

Re: gemini:// space

#67

Post by rakoo »

h_anna_h wrote: post #54
rakoo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gemini isn't trying to reinvent the web, to make it P2P or serverless or whatever; it's just reusing the ideas of gopher and the web but going in another direction. It doesn't try to replace the web. From this point of view it makes total sense to reuse TCP, TLS and DNS, because they're not trying to replace them. > Maybe also add a header to the server response that says x-gemini: true or whatever. That would requir…

> gemini isn't trying to reinvent the web > It doesn't try to replace the web This is what they claim, yes. > From this point of view it makes total sense to reuse TCP, TLS and DNS, because they're not trying to replace them I do not understand this point. Wanting to replace the web is irrelevant to using better and simpler protocols. > That would require adding headers Treat any server that contains extra headers as…

> This is what they claim, yes.

No it is not. See the FAQ again at https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html:

> 1.4 Do you really think you can replace the web?

> Not for a minute! Nor does anybody involved with Gemini want to destroy Gopherspace. Gemini is not intended to replace either Gopher or the web, but to co-exist peacefully alongside them as one more option which people can freely choose to use if it suits them. In the same way that many people currently serve the same content via gopher and the web, people will be able to "bihost" or "trihost" content on whichever combination of protocols they think offer the best match to their technical, philosophical and aesthetic requirements and those of their intended audience.

For the other point you seem to forget that gemini doesn't exist on technical grounds but on philosophical grounds: it wants to create a new space with its own rules, even though the technicalities are close to something that already exist. People have written blogs (called gemlogs in gemini), and they "hacked" the format to build an informal replacement to Atom. The constraints of the medium created the requirements and the result is a simple, human-readable and human-editable document that can replace Atom in most cases: https://proxy.flounder.online/gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/.... It follows the philosophy of making this new space more human-centered.

Re: gemini:// space

#68

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

Thorentis wrote: post #15

Just a meta-comment, but is this blog meant to be stream-of-consciousness? I found the prose very hard to read, and the phrasing to be quite jarring. Possibly too many commas or separate phrases?

Obviously take this with a pinch of salt, but it's the first piece of writing I've seen achieve a 'post-graduate' readability rating on Hemingway.

Re: gemini:// space

#69

Post by eznzt »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12

I really like the idea of having a more bare-bones text-only web, but I can't get onboard with Gemini until it offers the same support for screenreaders as HTML. (For example, an equivalent of span lang=XX tags is missing, so if you quote a foreign-language word(s) in your text, you can't let screenreaders know what language to read it in). The visually impaired should not be second-class citizens in any new internet…

If you like the idea of having bare-bones text-only web then you will see how everybody and their granny have a feature that they won't get onboard until it is implemented. Then at that point we will have HTML again.

Re: gemini:// space

#70

Post by krapp »

knowledge-clay wrote: post #34

Gemini is fantastic. For anyone interested in experimenting with it without setting up a server, I've been working on a simple Gemini site builder that works over HTTP and serves the content via Gemini and HTTP proxy: https://flounder.online/ In my view, Gemini's bare-bones text format is its killer feature. Non-technical users have been able to easily write Gemtext based on a few examples and a bit of experimentatio…

>This gets users away from WSIWYG without forcing them to learn something as complex as HTML.

To be fair, though, tons of non-technical users were able to handle HTML in the old days. It's not that complicated.

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